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They Will Always Hate You. Always.

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2025 6:51 am
by Tavares Standfield
My LDS Friends:

For over half my life, I was deeply concerned about others accepting my faith as “Christian.” I was a proud apologist. I jumped into debates with my anti-Mormon evangelical peers. I put my scripture mastery to use and could do battle in the most fierce Bible bash. And to be honest, one of my proudest moments is standing up to and going face-to-face with a idiot youth pastor who had laid a trap for us using the whole “request a Book of Mormon” thing. A bunch of his evangelical anti-Mormon youth followers were present when we knocked on the door. As a 19yr old kid I really did fare well against this anti-Mormon evangelical who, as I recall, received his degree from an unaccredited anti-Mormon evangelical Bible college.

In the many years from the time I formally left the LDS Church, I have come to realize the great folly of this concern. This came about as I came to understand the following two things:

First, why would Mormons want to be like anti-Mormon evangelical christians? Walking into my home this evening I had to navigate my way around a puddle with more depth than their worship services. They are trending down in terms of income and education. Their children are taught from books that teach the Earth is 6,000 years old. Rather than do any kind of outreach to the LGB community after prop 8 and as the culture changed after the legalization of same-sex marriage nationwide, they have doubled down. Whatever your feelings are about the LDS Church’s outreach, at least they are trying. They are trying to navigate a very challenging theological position. To fully embrace same-sex marriage, LDS doctrine would have to go through fundamental change that would require re-writing the theological foundations on which the modern LDS Church is built. This wouldn’t be easy task and, even if the Church undertook such a project, it would be done very incrementally. The LDS Church moves slowly; and it grinds to a halt when there is even the appearance of backing down.

But be grateful that the Mormons actually have an interesting theological position to begin with. Anti-Mormon evangelicals say same-sex marriage is bad because Leviticus or something. There is no rationale. There is no explanation about why God thinks this is bad. At least Mormons can explain to you how changing this doctrine would be like unwinding all of the established Star Wars lore to tell the story about how Anakin and Obi-wan were entangled in a passionate and complex homoerotic relationship. And, unable to hide their love from the evil Queen Leia, both turned to the Dark Side with the Sith rule of two or something.

Mormons value education. They excel in business and politics. They are well-represented in Academia. Despite the efforts of John Gee to eliminate any credibility Mormon scholars may have established, that representation persists. Mormons are thoughtful and critical thinkers. At the very least, any sister in Relief Society can explain the Plan of Salvation from beginning to end. She’ll tell you about our First Estate. And how we were in on this whole scheme from the very beginning. Ask an anti-Mormon evangelical what their favorite Bible verse is, they will say “I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it.” This right after they explained that the Bible says you are going to Hell for accepting the Book of Mormon.

Mormons are good people. And unless they are trying to impress Dan Peterson, don’t spend any time thinking about how anti-Mormon evangelicals are evil, false teachers, minions of Satan, cultists, anti-Christ, or fans of Taylor Swift. Anti-Mormon evangelicals just aren’t that interesting.

Mormons are too busy doing their home/visiting teaching, volunteering at the storehouse, doing genealogy, visiting the Temple, and printing out the weekly sacrament program to be concerned about the anti-Mormon evangelicals.

Again, why would anyone want to emulate anti-Mormon evangelical christians?

Although no longer a Christian, I would much rather hang out with a dear Sister from Parowan, than any anti-Mormon evangelical “leader.”

Second, they will always hate you. Not just hate, they will always loathe you. To them you are the manifestation of Satan’s rebellion in the Last Days. They hate you. They teach their children to hate you. They will lie and deceive in service of their bigoted and dogmatic views. Nothing you do or say will ever change this. No amount of interfaith-dialogues or “I’m a Mormon!” campaigns will make a bit of difference.

The only time the anti-Mormon evangelicals pretend to engage Mormons in good faith is when they want to ride Mormon political coattails. Even now – in this very moment – anti-Mormon evangelical christians are debating whether the victims in Michigan deserve compassion because they are in so much theological error. These people are deranged.

Let the Mormons proclaim: “Get you behind me, William Lane Craig. No longer will I be tempted by your flattering words.” “Beware!, Matt Slick, as the Elders of Israel will dust their feet at the entry to your website.”

Mormons need to put the past behind them. Cut their losses and drop any fantasy of being accepted by these bigoted and hateful cretins.

Mormons should stand on their own. Be proud of the weird doctrines. Be ready to debate the exact requirements to enter the 3rd level of the Celestial Kingdom with any who ask you.

Re: They Will Always Hate You. Always

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2025 7:08 am
by Res Ipsa
Hi Tavares. Nice to see you. The idea of debating whether the victims are “worthy” of compassion is insane to me. Growing up LDS, I was proud of our differences from other religions. I got out before that part of the culture changed.

I posted a Pew survey in another thread. Of the various categories, only the LDS folks expressed a net positive view of all other religious groups in the survey. The evangelicals had a decidedly negative view of LDS folks.

Re: They Will Always Hate You. Always

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2025 7:22 am
by Tavares Standfield
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Sep 30, 2025 7:08 am
Hi Tavares. Nice to see you. The idea of debating whether the victims are “worthy” of compassion is insane to me. Growing up LDS, I was proud of our differences from other religions. I got out before that part of the culture changed.
Nice to see you as well.

They call Mormons a cult. And yet they are really having this conversation.
I posted a Pew survey in another thread. Of the various categories, only the LDS folks expressed a net positive view of all other religious groups in the survey. The evangelicals had a decidedly negative view of LDS folks.
I thought that was very interesting. It may be that I am ridiculously good looking with the charm of John Dehlin, so I may be biased. But I've always received a warm welcome even when they thought Mormons are weird. And I had plenty of opportunities to to explain our weirdness to people who genuinely curious.

Re: They Will Always Hate You. Always

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2025 7:28 am
by Physics Guy
I was never Mormon, and though there was a while when I was young when I counted myself evangelical, I never bought scriptural inerrancy. So I'm really just a spectator if Mormons and evangelicals fight. Insofar as I have an opinion, though, I think I agree that Mormons should just be themselves, weird or not. The star-bellied Sneeches are never going to invite them to frankfurter parties.

What I wonder is how far this is possible. Although Mormonism does seem to add a bunch of unique stuff, a big part of Mormonism is still a hijacking of the old Christian brand. Mormonism can't just ditch the Bible, rename its saviour, and cut all ties to the old religion. Mormonism may be memetically diversified, but it still has a big chunk of its capital invested in the idea that its Jesus is the same real person as the Jesus of the evangelicals, just more fully portrayed. In fact continuity with the historical Jesus is even more important to Mormons in one way than it is to most evangelical sects, because a lot of evangelical churches claim to be nothing more than groups of believers, but it's very important to Mormonism that the Mormon church is the Official Church of Jesus Christ.

So I think Mormons may be compelled to defend a certain amount of continuity between Mormonism and other Christian denominations. Mormons themselves can't afford to declare that it doesn't matter whether or not their Jesus guy is the same guy as theirs, or whether or not He endorses their corporate church. I think they're always going to have to step up for those things.

Instead of downplaying their differences, though, I think that Mormons could be faster to volunteer the fact, even proudly, that theirs is a thoroughly reimagined version of Christianity.

Re: They Will Always Hate You. Always

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2025 8:48 am
by Res Ipsa
Tavares Standfield wrote:
Tue Sep 30, 2025 7:22 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Sep 30, 2025 7:08 am
Hi Tavares. Nice to see you. The idea of debating whether the victims are “worthy” of compassion is insane to me. Growing up LDS, I was proud of our differences from other religions. I got out before that part of the culture changed.
Nice to see you as well.

They call Mormons a cult. And yet they are really having this conversation.
I posted a Pew survey in another thread. Of the various categories, only the LDS folks expressed a net positive view of all other religious groups in the survey. The evangelicals had a decidedly negative view of LDS folks.
I thought that was very interesting. It may be that I am ridiculously good looking with the charm of John Dehlin, so I may be biased. But I've always received a warm welcome even when they thought Mormons are weird. And I had plenty of opportunities to to explain our weirdness to people who genuinely curious.
Yeah, I was really thrown by the results of that survey. Maybe it’s the part of the country I live in. I’ve never run into anyone in my day to day life who ever said anything negative about Mormons. I’m not shy about letting people know that I was raised LDS. Or maybe I just exist in a more tolerant bubble.

Re: They Will Always Hate You. Always

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2025 9:03 am
by Res Ipsa
Physics Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 30, 2025 7:28 am
I was never Mormon, and though there was a while when I was young when I counted myself evangelical, I never bought scriptural inerrancy. So I'm really just a spectator if Mormons and evangelicals fight. Insofar as I have an opinion, though, I think I agree that Mormons should just be themselves, weird or not. The star-bellied Sneeches are never going to invite them to frankfurter parties.

What I wonder is how far this is possible. Although Mormonism does seem to add a bunch of unique stuff, a big part of Mormonism is still a hijacking of the old Christian brand. Mormonism can't just ditch the Bible, rename its saviour, and cut all ties to the old religion. Mormonism may be memetically diversified, but it still has a big chunk of its capital invested in the idea that its Jesus is the same real person as the Jesus of the evangelicals, just more fully portrayed. In fact continuity with the historical Jesus is even more important to Mormons in one way than it is to most evangelical sects, because a lot of evangelical churches claim to be nothing more than groups of believers, but it's very important to Mormonism that the Mormon church is the Official Church of Jesus Christ.

So I think Mormons may be compelled to defend a certain amount of continuity between Mormonism and other Christian denominations. Mormons themselves can't afford to declare that it doesn't matter whether or not their Jesus guy is the same guy as theirs, or whether or not He endorses their corporate church. I think they're always going to have to step up for those things.

Instead of downplaying their differences, though, I think that Mormons could be faster to volunteer the fact, even proudly, that theirs is a thoroughly reimagined version of Christianity.
I think there’s a real tension at play because of what Joseph Smith taught about other Christian denominations. From my standpoint, all Protestant denominations could be viewed as hijacked Catholicism. But internally, LDS theology is respirations — the only faithful successor to Christ’s IG Church. Smith’s first vision has God proclaiming that all other denominations were wrong. And, for over 150 years, the orthodox version of God was portrayed as coming from Satan. Moving from restoration to reimagining sounds like a big ask to me.

Re: They Will Always Hate You. Always

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2025 11:54 am
by Kishkumen
Physics Guy wrote:
Tue Sep 30, 2025 7:28 am
I was never Mormon, and though there was a while when I was young when I counted myself evangelical, I never bought scriptural inerrancy. So I'm really just a spectator if Mormons and evangelicals fight. Insofar as I have an opinion, though, I think I agree that Mormons should just be themselves, weird or not. The star-bellied Sneeches are never going to invite them to frankfurter parties.

What I wonder is how far this is possible. Although Mormonism does seem to add a bunch of unique stuff, a big part of Mormonism is still a hijacking of the old Christian brand. Mormonism can't just ditch the Bible, rename its saviour, and cut all ties to the old religion. Mormonism may be memetically diversified, but it still has a big chunk of its capital invested in the idea that its Jesus is the same real person as the Jesus of the evangelicals, just more fully portrayed. In fact continuity with the historical Jesus is even more important to Mormons in one way than it is to most evangelical sects, because a lot of evangelical churches claim to be nothing more than groups of believers, but it's very important to Mormonism that the Mormon church is the Official Church of Jesus Christ.

So I think Mormons may be compelled to defend a certain amount of continuity between Mormonism and other Christian denominations. Mormons themselves can't afford to declare that it doesn't matter whether or not their Jesus guy is the same guy as theirs, or whether or not He endorses their corporate church. I think they're always going to have to step up for those things.

Instead of downplaying their differences, though, I think that Mormons could be faster to volunteer the fact, even proudly, that theirs is a thoroughly reimagined version of Christianity.
Good thoughts, PG. I would take issue with the idea that Mormons are engaged in a hijacking of anything. They represent one stream of the Christian tradition, different yes, but there is no illicit theft of anything going on in Mormonism. Joseph Smith was a Christian and stayed Christian the whole way through. The church he founded was Christian, and it remains Christian. It may be heterodox, but it started out and remains to this day a Christian organization.

Re: They Will Always Hate You. Always

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2025 12:22 pm
by Hound of Heaven
Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Sep 30, 2025 11:54 am
They represent one stream of the Christian tradition,
No, Mormons are not Christians. If Mormons are considered Christians, then it follows that Christians cannot be classified as Christians.

Mormons hold the belief that the true gospel of Christ was absent from the earth for 1800 years following the deaths of the apostles. Meaning, the Christian gospel was not present on earth when individuals were trying to articulate the true essence of Christianity! The Christian gospel was restored to the earth in the early 1800s, and the sole church possessing divine power and authority is the Mormon church. Mormons and Mormon doctrine view Christianity as having nothing from God, not even the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The initial vision account in the scriptures validates my point, I'll put it below! Approximately a year ago, Russell Nelson stated during a general conference that other churches, lacking the authority of God on earth, function merely as humanitarian and teaching organizations, and nothing beyond that. He was essentially stating that other so-called churches do not qualify as true churches, as they lack the divine authority from God to be recognized as actual churches of God. Mormon doctrine, once fully understood, suggests that Christianity isn't Christianity. Mormonism is Christianity!

Re: They Will Always Hate You. Always

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2025 12:32 pm
by Kishkumen
Hound of Heaven wrote:
Tue Sep 30, 2025 12:22 pm
No, Mormons are not Christians. If Mormons are considered Christians, then it follows that Christians cannot be classified as Christians.

Mormons hold the belief that the true gospel of Christ was absent from the earth for 1800 years following the deaths of the apostles. Meaning, the Christian gospel was not present on earth when individuals were trying to articulate the true essence of Christianity! The Christian gospel was restored to the earth in the early 1800s, and the sole church possessing divine power and authority is the Mormon church. Mormons and Mormon doctrine view Christianity as having nothing from God, not even the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The initial vision account in the scriptures validates my point, ill put it below! Approximately a year ago, Russell Nelson stated during a general conference that other churches, lacking the authority of God on earth, function merely as humanitarian and teaching organizations, and nothing beyond that. He was essentially stating that other so-called churches do not qualify as true churches, as they lack the divine authority from God to be recognized as actual churches of God. Mormon doctrine, once fully understood, suggests that Christianity isn't Christianity. Mormonism is Christianity!
That is absurd logic, HoH.

Re: They Will Always Hate You. Always

Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2025 12:42 pm
by Gadianton
That is absurd logic, HoH.
worse than that, it contradicts President Trump's statement yesterday that the attack on the Mormon church in Michigan was yet another targeted attack on Christians. Hound is saying Trump is wrong. It also allows Mormons to be the target of anti-Christian bias at the DOJ, as his executive order does not include Mormons.