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Here’s a take you probably haven’t seen: the First Vision wasn’t originally Joseph’s at all.

It was Alvin’s.

According to this view, before his death in 1823, Alvin experienced what he described as “the Lord” appearing to him, but that “Lord” was actually a composite of Joseph Smith Sr., Sidney Rigdon, and Luman Walters, the three main spiritual influences (with Rigdon as a gap) around the Smith family at the time.

Alvin wrote about that encounter - his own seeing of the Father and the Son as described - in Ether, and that personal experience became the seed for what we know in the Book of Mormon in Ether.

Alvin merged the human figures into a single being he called “the Lord.”

Joseph retold Alvin’s experience as his own First Vision, beginning with a “the Lord”, and then with variants including the Father and the Son and a concourse, more than one, of messengers.

In other words, the founding vision of Mormonism began as Alvin’s experience as reflected in Ether, later retold and consolidated through multiple revisions, reframed, and eventually canonized by his younger brother.

I know, Kish, *mind blown* right?

Hmmmm - I was going to start a FV thread tonight - also a bit non-standard, though not as far from the run-of-the-mill as yours. I hinted at it a couple of weeks ago in the thread that demonstrated MG's failed arithmetic.

I'll wait a little while and see what develops here ...

Limnor wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 19, 2025 10:27 pm

Here’s a take you probably haven’t seen: the First Vision wasn’t originally Joseph’s at all.

It was Alvin’s.

You are correct, insomuch as I "haven't seen" Alvin's account that allegedly claims to precede that of his younger brother's visionary experience that was recorded in Joseph's 1832 account of a First Vision.

Limnor wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 19, 2025 10:27 pm

According to this view, before his death in 1823, Alvin experienced what he described as “the Lord” appearing to him, but that “Lord” was actually a composite of Joseph Smith Sr., Sidney Rigdon, and Luman Walters, the three main spiritual influences (with Rigdon as a gap) around the Smith family at the time.

Alvin wrote about that encounter - his own seeing of the Father and the Son as described - in Ether, and that personal experience became the seed for what we know in the Book of Mormon in Ether.

It would be nice if you quoted your source or better yet, quote the material you refer to in order to substantiate your claim.

Limnor wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 19, 2025 10:27 pm

Alvin merged the human figures into a single being he called “the Lord.”

This is exactly the kind of Christian thing we read in the Bible when Stephen (Acts 7) "looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Limnor wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 19, 2025 10:27 pm

Joseph retold Alvin’s experience as his own First Vision, beginning with a “the Lord”, and then with variants including the Father and the Son and a concourse, more than one, of messengers.

In other words, the founding vision of Mormonism began as Alvin’s experience as reflected in Ether, later retold and consolidated through multiple revisions, reframed, and eventually canonized by his younger brother.

No, Limnor. I'm confident that Joseph expressed his own visionary spiritual experience of seeing "the Lord" when 15 years old and secreted that experience into the Book of Mormon through an imaginary character, Mormon. The 11-15-24 is the key which Joseph used on his own personal lock!

RIP, Alvin.

malkie wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 19, 2025 10:56 pm

demonstrated MG's failed arithmetic.

MG is a liar and a deceiver. I see through him with my own eyes.

He's rotten to the core.

PS. grindael, RIP, bro. I will kick MG's sorry ass for you, every time.

No, Limnor. I'm confident that Joseph expressed his own visionary spiritual experience of seeing "the Lord" when 15 years old and secreted that experience into the Book of Mormon through an imaginary character, Mormon. The 11-15-24 is the key which Joseph used on his own personal lock!

I see Joseph “as” Mormon the same as you, and agree with your 11-15-24 key.

But I don’t believe Joseph saw the Lord.

He may have seen someone, yes, but I am skeptical of everything he has said as captured in historical accounts.

Bottom line for me, and the interest I have in the Book of Mormon, has been seeking to correlate “who’s who” in the book.

I may have overreached with this correlation - what it represents is the “brother of Jared,” who I see as Alvin, and his vision of “the Lord” in Ether.

I don’t believe there was an ancient “brother of Jared,” but there was an Alvin who was cast in that role, and had seer stones that were “blessed” by someone.

The question I’m seeking to answer is, who was the real-world personage that performed that blessing and taught Alvin/the brother of Jared to use seer stones?

What he saw “through the veil” represents, to me, the Masonic influence of his father, the theological parts represent Rigdon, and the seer stones represent Luman Walters methods - a composite put together by Alvin/the brother of Jared.

Like I said, I may have overreached but it’s just a message board where Mormon things get discussed.

Do you have an idea who the brother of Jared really saw? Was it really “the Lord?”

malkie wrote: ↑

Sun Oct 19, 2025 10:56 pm

Hmmmm - I was going to start a FV thread tonight - also a bit non-standard, though not as far from the run-of-the-mill as yours. I hinted at it a couple of weeks ago in the thread that demonstrated MG's failed arithmetic.

I'll wait a little while and see what develops here ...

I am interested!

I doubt the concept of this thread goes too far, as it really is a synthesis of a ton of sources.

What I’m proposing is dependent upon the brother of Jared being Alvin, and who Alvin really saw “through the veil.”

The ever-changing accounts of the “first vision” have led me here - because Joseph changed his story multiple times, it leads me to believe he didn’t really see anything, but rather borrowed the account,

Controversial? Sure. But it is a unique view and I am interested in others’ comments and reactions.

Shulem asked for sources. Let me “set the plate,” so to speak, that leads to my conclusion.

Working Thesis (Speculative Framework):

Between 1820 and 1823, Alvin Smith may have experienced or reported a visionary event that incorporated the influences of Luman Walters, Sidney Rigdon, and Joseph Smith Sr. These men embodied three visionary currents circulating in the Palmyra–Western Reserve region:

- Folk-magical theurgy (Walters the conjurer);
- Restorationist preaching (Rigdon’s Campbellite “ancient order”); and
- Family visionary dreams (Joseph Sr.’s “Tree of Life” dream and apocalyptic imagery).

After Alvin’s death (1823), Joseph Jr. absorbed and re-scripturalized this composite family vision as the narrative voice of Mormon—the compiler-seer who gathers past revelations and transforms them into sacred history. This hypothesis explains structural parallels between the Book of Mormon’s theophanies (esp. Ether 3) and Joseph’s later “First Vision” accounts.

Luman Walters and the Smith Family

“Walters the Magician, a physician from the vicinity of Palmyra, practiced necromancy, used a crystal, and was connected with the Smiths in treasure-seeking operations.”
— D. Michael Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, rev. ed. (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1998), p. 119.

“Joseph Sr. and his sons dug with Walters for buried treasure on the hill later called Cumorah.”
— Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History (New York: Knopf, 1945), p. 35.

Takeaway: Walters represents the esoteric practitioner in Joseph’s orbit—mixing occult ritual, seer stones, and biblical invocation. His presence makes plausible a multi-figure visionary scenario in which Walters performed or interpreted visions for Alvin or the Smith family.

Joseph Smith Sr.’s Dream-Visions

“I thought I was traveling in an open, desolate field, when I beheld a tree whose fruit was exceedingly white …”
— Joseph Smith Sr., Dream of the Tree of Life, ca. 1811–19, recorded by Lucy Mack Smith, History (1845), ch. 3.

“The close correspondence between Joseph Sr.’s dream and Lehi’s vision suggests that the father’s dream served as one of the imaginative sources for the son’s scripture.”
— Richard L. Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (New York: Knopf, 2005), p. 39.

Takeaway: The Smith home nurtured a visionary template—private dream-theophany later re-cast in scripture. This strengthens the idea that Alvin’s reported experience, if any, fit the same mold.

Sidney Rigdon as Restorationist Conduit

“It was the theology of Sidney Rigdon … which provided Joseph Smith with much of the doctrinal skeleton of early Mormonism.”
— Brodie, No Man Knows My History, p. 121.

“Critics alleging a pre-1830 Rigdon link have produced no contemporaneous evidence, though the similarity of themes remains striking.”
— Richard S. Van Wagoner, Sidney Rigdon: A Portrait of Religious Excess (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1994), pp. 57–60.

Takeaway: Rigdon’s theology of restoration, baptismal remission, and primitive Christianity circulated in the same region before 1830. Even if Joseph and Rigdon did not meet, their shared discourse could have colored the family’s religious imagination.

Summary Conclusion:

In the visionary milieu of 1820s Palmyra, Alvin Smith may have served as the first recipient of a composite revelation mediated by his father’s dreams, Luman Walters’s folk-magical ritualism, and the regional restorationism later associated with Sidney Rigdon. Joseph Smith Jr., absorbing the story after Alvin’s death, reframed it as scripture in the figure of Mormon and later internalized its pattern as his own ‘First Vision.’ While conjectural, this synthesis situates Joseph’s earliest theophany within a documented family-regional visionary tradition.

Notes:

No extant Alvin vision text survives; all reconstruction is inferential.

Walters’ link to the Smiths is well attested; Rigdon’s pre-1830 contact remains contested.

Family visionary continuity (Joseph Sr. to Joseph Jr.) is broadly accepted even in mainstream LDS scholarship.

Limnor wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 20, 2025 2:09 am

I see Joseph “as” Mormon the same as you, and agree with your 11-15-24 key.

That's great. Joseph Smith certainly tipped his hat and hand on that one! Too much information on his part and it cost him dearly seeing we, today, are smart and don't blindly read the stories without seeing through the fog of lies.

Limnor wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 20, 2025 2:09 am

But I don’t believe Joseph saw the Lord.

He may have seen someone, yes, but I am skeptical of everything he has said as captured in historical accounts.

I have little doubt that Joseph had spiritual experiences as a lad. These things are common among all peoples, worldwide, in all times and in all places. But Joseph's, I suspect, may have been specially influenced by drugs and an imagination that was bent on fooling everyone. Please refer to my thread up in the Celestial forum wherein the real possibility of Smith using drugs was part of his spiritual experiences:

Joseph Smith & Entheogens by The Backyard Professor

Limnor wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 20, 2025 2:09 am

..... Do you have an idea who the brother of Jared really saw? Was it really “the Lord?”

You have just as much right to speculate and provide your offerings on this message board as I do. Here is an answer to your question from my signature First Vision thread up in the Celestial forum:

• Brother of Jared is given the Finger!

• Brother of Jared

• Brother of Jared sees God face to face

• Finger of God

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Oct 20, 2025 3:17 pm

You have just as much right to speculate and provide your offerings on this message board as I do. Here is an answer to your question from my signature

Thanks - I’ll check them out