Plur1bus: Apple TV+'s indictment of Mormonism

[Gadianton]

(mild spoilers)

Episode 4 is unlikely to be a fav, it was slow but then suddenly over. Well, it was incredibly theological, skipping the basics and going straight to Last Temptation territory. Will the unity ala Zosia fall for Carol and give her what she wants? What would that mean? Is that Zosia the mortal bucking the unity or is that a failure in the unity? It's a theological question because assumptions about the nature divinity and infallibility determine the answer. Can the unity have a personality and fall in love? If so, then "opposites still attract" right? I'm still stuck on who Zosia actually is -- she should be the purest of the unity manifestations given she was an outright deceptive construct based on Carol's weaknesses, whereas others take on the voice in happenstance situations.

A lesser theme but more direct to the story line of this episode is Nephi beheading Laban. To what extent can Carol cause the unity to suffer, or individuals within the unity, in order to free humanity? To what extant can Carol employ deception and underhanded tactics to get what she wants?

Somebody definitely could use this in a sacrament meeting talk and everyone will just agree that nothing is off the table, That anything Carol does to free humanity is justified just as Nephi was justified to do basically anything to get the plates. The deeper theme questions the nature of God and is not a straightforward Mormon topic, but Orsan Pratt and those guys would have been interested I'm sure.

(yes, I was trolling you Malkie)

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Just watched the first episode. Very interesting.

[canpakes]

I’m with you—the LDS plan of salvation works only if every agent plays their scripted part, including Satan. When you build a system where even the devil’s job performance props up doctrine, you’re not solving the one–many problem; you’re locking yourself into a story that can’t tolerate agency.

That’s why the model can’t resolve the one–many problem: as soon as any agent deviates, the whole structure collapses, so the theology has to forbid deviation. It doesn’t describe freedom; it describes a closed system that must absorb every possible outcome into the plan to stay intact. The system survives only by refusing to let contradiction count as contradiction.

What MG has done is describe exactly that kind of system—a framework-scaffolding-template where nothing can fail because everything is reinterpreted as revelation. Contradiction, failure, and opposition don’t challenge the plan; they confirm it. It collapses the one–many problem by refusing to allow disconfirmation.

I’ve been toying with the term “democratic delusion” to describe this dynamic—not in the modern political sense, but in the metaphysical one: a system where the many shape the one until the structure collapses under incompatible demands—and I think it reflects the same one–many concept you’ve identified: “a holistic system that contains both God and Satan ultimately turns God into one mighty being among many, rather than Being itself.”

The initial indicator of this model can be seen, practically, in the 1826 glass-looker trial, and extended where Joseph kept giving every faction the revelation they wanted until their desires contradicted each other. In the end it became a democratic delusion—too many incompatible Josephs for any one section to survive.

And that’s the pattern with every early insider—Harris, Cowdery, Whitmer, the Laws, the Higbees, Marsh, the Johnsons. Joseph gave each of them a different Joseph, a different version of god tailored to what they personally desired. But those individualized versions ultimately couldn’t coexist, and once the contradictions collided, each follower felt betrayed by the Joseph he gave someone else.

I hope the series explores something like this.

Great explanation.

Related to this: In discussions about Mormonism that my SO and I have had with other exes and inactives, we’ve noted that leaders or scripture tried to ‘explain too much’ (right on down to men on the moon wearing top hats) along with the oddness and absurdity of Jesus’s manner of speaking with technical precision on things like property assignments, in supposed revelations within D&C. So much just sounds like ‘riffing in the moment’ to please the listener.

Your description above is a much more eloquent and complete way of looking at that sort of thing.

[Gadianton]

(mild spoilers)

1) Episode 5 is as Mormon as it gets, but I liked it very much for reasons other than this also. Anyway, the Unity that first love-bombed Carol to no effect is now disfellowshipping her. The recorded message she gets on the phone is exactly what the area authorities will say in their letter when initiating the disfellowshipping or excommunication process.

2) From Carol's perspective, free will is of upmost importance, and the Unity represents Satan's plan, where everyone is forced to be good. Does free will exist among the social Trinity? Mormonism certainly believes so. In fact, the Unity has implied in other episodes that free will does exist, that all those who take part want to be one with the whole and consider it wonderful. We could argue that they've been brainwashed by the virus or by some other means, but even the Church teaches that in the resurrection, our perfected bodies won't have the same impulses for sin, so you could argue that in the end, Mormonism doesn't have a clean solution to reconciling free will either, with the outcome of entire worlds and universes running in total harmony by free-will individual Gods. And in fact, when you look closer, Mormonism doesn't really teach free will in the way many wish to believe it does.

3) Carol's individualism is called into question. She clearly sees herself as self-reliant, and she's a fighter for sure, but she's learning how reliant on others she actually is. Presumably, the plot requires her to come to an appreciation of community at least to the point where she can functionally bond with the others who aren't infected in order to find a solution. I'll save the lecture, but part of the problem for the show and Mormonism also is the definition of free will, and the tendency to jump between "libertarian freedom" and "practical freedom", depending on the context.

(best for last)

4) A fascinating and very Mormon theme is truthfulness and deception. Representatives of the Unity "can't lie". But yet they do, because they avoid telling the truth. That's different than say, a dog, which actually can't lie. The Unity is morally bound not to lie, they know what it means whereas a dog doesn't, and they do lie in a very Mormon way. Think about the D&C verses regarding testing the spirits. I always found this passage perplexing. If you're visited by an angel, offer to shake hands. If it's a devil, then the entity will try to deceive you by offering its hand. But that's ridiculous because the devil knows you won't feel anything, and if Lucifer was second only to Christ in raw intellect, he would never fall into this trap, he'd refuse to shake. But it's much worse, because the good angel (embodied or not) wasn't particularly forthcoming. And, offering your own hand with false motives is a serious act of deception. A premeditated one that shows greater dishonesty than a devil's instinct-like response to it.

[Jesse Pinkman]

I haven’t started watching this yet but I love Vince Gilligan so I’m sure it’s awesome.

I’ve always loved the comparison of the Church experience to the Matrix.

This sounds like another interesting lens to view this show through.

[Whiskey]

I haven’t started watching this yet but I love Vince Gilligan so I’m sure it’s awesome.

I’ve always loved the comparison of the Church experience to the Matrix.

This sounds like another interesting lens to view this show through.

Wish this thread was not in the terrestrial forum. I am not seeing all this Mormon connection. I am just seeing sloooooooooooooooooooooooow, slow, slow development. Yes, there is a hive mind. And yes, the chick from Better Call Saul is in it, and she is a lesbian. So far so good. And that is about it. A drone gets tangled up and the chick from Better Call Saul finds some milk cartons, and that, is a huge clue! Oh, one guy asked the hive mind folks to fly him around on Air Force One. That was funny, actually. It prompted that - "What would I do in this situation" part of sci fi that makes it entertaining.

Here is hoping that the slow roll builds to something better, like Severance did (not a Gilligan show, but slow rolling). There are no Jesse Pinkman "cowhouse" moments and brain crandell making meth in is underpants tension moments yet.

[Jesse Pinkman]

I haven’t started watching this yet but I love Vince Gilligan so I’m sure it’s awesome.

I’ve always loved the comparison of the Church experience to the Matrix.

This sounds like another interesting lens to view this show through.

Wish this thread was not in the terrestrial forum. I am not seeing all this Mormon connection. I am just seeing sloooooooooooooooooooooooow, slow, slow development. Yes, there is a hive mind. And yes, the chick from Better Call Saul is in it, and she is a lesbian. So far so good. And that is about it. A drone gets tangled up and the chick from Better Call Saul finds some milk cartons, and that, is a huge clue! Oh, one guy asked the hive mind folks to fly him around on Air Force One. That was funny, actually. It prompted that - "What would I do in this situation" part of sci fi that makes it entertaining.

Here is hoping that the slow roll builds to something better, like Severance did (not a Gilligan show, but slow rolling). There are no Jesse Pinkman "cowhouse" moments and brain crandell making meth in is underpants tension moments yet.

Honestly, that’s why I have held off on watching this. The nature of the beast of every Apple TV series is the incredibly slow movement. I have always ended up fast forwarding through chunks in every series I have watched, including Severance.

I will likely wait until the whole season is dropped and then binge it.

[Whiskey]

Wish this thread was not in the terrestrial forum. I am not seeing all this Mormon connection. I am just seeing sloooooooooooooooooooooooow, slow, slow development. Yes, there is a hive mind. And yes, the chick from Better Call Saul is in it, and she is a lesbian. So far so good. And that is about it. A drone gets tangled up and the chick from Better Call Saul finds some milk cartons, and that, is a huge clue! Oh, one guy asked the hive mind folks to fly him around on Air Force One. That was funny, actually. It prompted that - "What would I do in this situation" part of sci fi that makes it entertaining.

Here is hoping that the slow roll builds to something better, like Severance did (not a Gilligan show, but slow rolling). There are no Jesse Pinkman "cowhouse" moments and brain crandell making meth in is underpants tension moments yet.

Honestly, that’s why I have held off on watching this. The nature of the beast of every Apple TV series is the incredibly slow movement. I have always ended up fast forwarding through chunks in every series I have watched, including Severance.

I will likely wait until the whole season is dropped and then binge it.

The only series I have enjoyed watching week to week in the last umpteen years was GoT and Landman. Landman only because I worked in the oilpatch and knew so many of these workover companies and land rig companies and small E&P companies. And GoT because dragons and crap.

Pluribus is absolutely NOT a week to week type of thriller. Not even close. Definitely wait for the binge and fastforward option.

[Jesse Pinkman]

Honestly, that’s why I have held off on watching this. The nature of the beast of every Apple TV series is the incredibly slow movement. I have always ended up fast forwarding through chunks in every series I have watched, including Severance.

I will likely wait until the whole season is dropped and then binge it.

The only series I have enjoyed watching week to week in the last umpteen years was GoT and Landman. Landman only because I worked in the oilpatch and knew so many of these workover companies and land rig companies and small E&P companies. And GoT because dragons and crap.

Pluribus is absolutely NOT a week to week type of thriller. Not even close. Definitely wait for the binge and fastforward option.

I LOVE Landman! It is one of my fave shows! Awesome writing and acting! And this season, Sam Elliott is joining the cast. Billy Bob Thornton is so hilarious!

Game of Thrones is just classic. I need to do a rewatch.

[Gadianton]

(mild spoilers)

Episode 6 has some theological heft to it for sure. Mr. Diabaté has found a casino and is living the life every Mormon man assumes to be rightfully his own. A life of opulence and personal importance. The life of a God, or a prince of the Most High. And don't let the "fakeness" lessen the fantasy, that may be the most realistic part. Mormon men in leadership are not turned off by the reality that members are playing roles and that Mormon life is "fake". A Mormon leader never wonders if a particular member really loves them or thinks they are the greatest, they are concerned if that member acts like they love him and thinks he's the greatest. I've said before that lying is essential to authoritarianism: a subject who advocates for the leader because the leader did a good job may not be loyal. A real disciple tells obvious lies in service of the leader. The fakeness of Mormon life is the mark of duty and loyalty.

(heavy spoiler this paragraph only)
Mr. Diabaté of the casino is much like Brigham Young of the state of Deseret. Mr. Diabaté trains the unity to serve his purposes much like Brigham Young trains the saints to serve his own. The contradiction between authoritarianism and a social trinity is on full display. The most powerful and uncomfortable moment of the show happens within the first few minutes. Mr. Diabaté enjoys a bath much like Dan's favorite actor Hugh Grant did in the movie Sirens, or as Brigham Young did with his many wives of the Deseret colony -- with some of his wives, that is. When an older woman happens by the others, the natural instinct of the Unity is for her to join in. Nope! Can you image one of Brigham's wives closer to his age getting the same attention as the youngest one? The first few minutes of this episode unravels the Plan of Salvation unlike any other fifteen minutes of television ever produced. There's so much more here such as the "terrible secret" of the orderly town, but I'll leave it here for now.

Meanwhile, Carol's obstacle seems to be her own toxic personality. She's the reimagined Jesus, the uncharismatic leader who can't figure how to get her 12 disciples in line to do the work. There will be some flirtation with deconstruction I would think, because the show has framed a perfect binary opposition between individualism and socialism, where Carol represents everything that is wrong with individualism. In order to win, she will likely need to be more like the Unity. Who among the Twelve will be her counselors and make for the first presidency and object lesson of social trinitarianism? Carol like the father embodies the rule of law, will her favored disciples reflect the qualities of Jesus and the Holy Ghost? I suppose we shall see.