D&C 127:2

[MG 2.0]

I don’t know how many here are familiar with Jared Halverson and his work. Phd. in religious history out of Vanderbilt. Has a YouTube channel at www.youtube.com/@Unshaken

Recently I listened to this presentation:

https://youtu.be/7FabQn-VrhE?si=hXOq1dA9ZORFyYhL

As I’ve participated on this board for a number of years and questioned “Why do I do it?” I found that I was struck by what Dr. Halverson had to say here. Not to compare myself to any one person. I’m just a weak vessel as many of you have pointed out consistently. But his detailed analysis of verse 2 in Section 127 really opened my eyes as to the ‘battle’, one could say, between the compounded increase in anti-Mormonism and the necessity of Latter-day Saints staying in the fight. Even if we find ourselves in hard situations ‘defending the faith that is in us’.

I would challenge those here to listen to the complete presentation without holding your nose and return and report. I’m particularly interested in responses from those that actually watch the complete presentation and do so with an open mind to what he is saying.

I haven’t seen his name brought up here to the best of my recollection. He is a powerful voice in opposition to the nay sayers and anti Mormons that have proliferated online expotentially over the last few years.

Give him a watch!

Regards,
MG

[Abaddon]

I may give it a listen but, to be honest, Mormon Apologetics is so vacuous to me that I'd rather do almost anything else.

But I do want to comment on "anti-Mormon."

I'm probably about as anti-Mormon as you are an anti-FLDS: you think they're an apostate LDS group and I think LDS/Mormons have apostatized from critical thinking.

I will never for the life of me understand how an intelligent adult can stay Mormon. Does that make me an anti-Mormon?

1) I don't go to Sacrament meetings and disrupt the service.

2) I don't make loud noises when Mormon family members are in the middle of a prayer

3) I don't seek out Mormons to physically harass them.

But I'm an anti-Mormon because I think they're mental sheep? That speaks more to Mormons' desire for sheltering under a victim status label because it hurts them in the feels that people look at them as deluded.

I'm fine being labeled as an apostate (because I am), but an anti-Mormon? Nah. I'm more of an "I-don't-care-Mormon" despite my irregular posting on a Mormon discussion board.

[Marcus]

One of our own, the backyard professor, has commented on Halverson's apologetics, in a Mormonism live! Podcast, titled "Jared Halverson & The Games Apologists Play | Mormonism LIVE 077."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBmbXk3K_xQ&t=1854s

The description states:
"Bill and RFM review a handful of clips from LDS Apologist, Jared Halverson. The discussion revolves around the games apologists play. These often include creating a framework and solutions to problems that to the believer seem tenable but when closely examined often hinge on fallacies or irrational thinking. The Apologist sees creating plausibility as a win. But such ideas and frameworks for thinking are often full of holes and less than the most rational answer."

I bolded the part that seems most relevant to mental gymnast's request that people listen to this apologist.

[I Have Questions]

I don’t know how many here are familiar with Jared Halverson and his work. Phd. in religious history out of Vanderbilt. Has a YouTube channel at www.youtube.com/@Unshaken

Recently I listened to this presentation:

https://youtu.be/7FabQn-VrhE?si=hXOq1dA9ZORFyYhL

As I’ve participated on this board for a number of years and questioned “Why do I do it?” I found that I was struck by what Dr. Halverson had to say here. Not to compare myself to any one person. I’m just a weak vessel as many of you have pointed out consistently. But his detailed analysis of verse 2 in Section 127 really opened my eyes as to the ‘battle’, one could say, between the compounded increase in anti-Mormonism and the necessity of Latter-day Saints staying in the fight. Even if we find ourselves in hard situations ‘defending the faith that is in us’.

I would challenge those here to listen to the complete presentation without holding your nose and return and report. I’m particularly interested in responses from those that actually watch the complete presentation and do so with an open mind to what he is saying.

I haven’t seen his name brought up here to the best of my recollection. He is a powerful voice in opposition to the nay sayers and anti Mormons that have proliferated online expotentially over the last few years.

Give him a watch!

Regards,
MG

First, can you demonstrate that you have actually watched the complete presentation? Explain why it is worth our time, Halverson’s key points, and what it was specifically that made you think it was worth starting a thread about. Thanks, in anticipation…

You should invite Halveson to come here to peddle his wares, as it were. Then we’ll see how his arguments stand up to scrutiny. I’m guessing he lacks the courage of his convictions. Has Halveson served a senior mission yet?

[drumdude]

The video, "In Deep Anti-Mormon Waters," discusses Joseph Smith's optimistic attitude and unwavering trust in God amidst persecution, drawing parallels to modern anti-Mormon sentiment.

Key themes include:

The Rise of Anti-Mormonism: The speaker acknowledges the increasing intensity and frequency of anti-Mormon attacks, particularly on social media, making it difficult for younger generations to avoid (0:00-2:01).

Joseph Smith's Example: Joseph Smith is presented as an incredible example of how to handle anti-Mormonism due to the personal and literal nature of the persecution he faced (2:21-3:00).

Joseph's Unconquerable Optimism: Despite facing grave dangers, Joseph Smith considered his perils a "small thing," viewing the envy and wrath of man as his "common lot" (3:42-4:17). He believed he was in an enviable position because he knew he was doing what was right (4:42-5:01).

God's Judgment: Joseph Smith cared only for God's opinion, trusting that God would judge him fairly and that his name would be had for both good and evil, as prophesied (6:45-7:34).

Continuing the Work: Joseph Smith commanded the Saints to rejoice and continue the temple work, especially baptisms for the dead, redoubling their diligence, perseverance, patience, and works (12:35-13:22). He emphasized that opposition is evidence that truth is at work and encouraged fighting "heat with light" (8:28-9:47).

Persecution and Reward: The video concludes by stating that being persecuted places believers in the company of prophets, righteous individuals, and ultimately, Christ, assuring a reward in heaven for enduring faithfully (15:17-15:45).

While the video aims to provide comfort and strength through an apologetic lens, some common criticisms of apologetic approaches, particularly in the context of religious persecution and historical figures, could be applied:

Potential for Downplaying or Oversimplifying Persecution: The video presents Joseph Smith's persecution and modern anti-Mormonism primarily as external forces or a "common lot" (4:14), rather than exploring any potential internal factors or actions that might have contributed to the opposition. Some apologetics are criticized for framing persecution solely as external hostility, potentially overlooking the complexities of historical or social dynamics.

Focus on Internal Cohesion over External Understanding: The video emphasizes a "thick skin, soft heart" approach (0:36), and encourages believers to "produce positivity" (9:25) and "let them speak, let them post" (9:13), rather than engaging directly with criticisms. This can be seen as prioritizing the bolstering of internal faith and unity over a deep, nuanced engagement with external critiques or an unhindered search for truth.

"Us vs. Them" Framing: The narrative frequently positions "anti-Mormons" or "ex-Mormons" (1:54) as an opposing force, with Joseph Smith and the Saints as the persecuted righteous. While this can foster solidarity, some argue that overly defensive apologetics can reinforce an "us vs. them" mentality that may hinder genuine dialogue or understanding across different viewpoints.

Historical Rationalization: The video frames Joseph Smith's attitude as universally positive despite severe hardship. While this showcases his resilience, some critics of apologetics suggest that such narratives can sometimes simplify complex historical figures and events, or rationalize controversial aspects of their lives rather than addressing them head-on. For example, the video mentions his "enviable position" despite being a "prisoner" (4:34-5:01), which might be seen by some as an oversimplification of the severe conditions he faced.

Limited Engagement with Criticisms: The video suggests that engaging directly with negative content in comment sections is "probably not going to turn the tide" (8:54-9:03), advocating instead for positive action. While positive action is valuable, an exclusive focus on it might be seen as sidestepping the intellectual engagement required to address specific criticisms, which some argue can lead to intellectual stagnation within the faith.

[Rivendale]

Jared Halverson was taken to task over his bewilderment as to why more women are leaving the church than men. He was absolutely befuddled as to why women would find their current position in Mormonism lacking in almost every possible metric. He subsequently met with several of the women who pointed out his tone deaf approach and he learned absolutely nothing. He is as church broke as it gets.

[MG 2.0]

The video, "In Deep Anti-Mormon Waters," discusses Joseph Smith's optimistic attitude and unwavering trust in God amidst persecution, drawing parallels to modern anti-Mormon sentiment.

Key themes include:

The Rise of Anti-Mormonism: The speaker acknowledges the increasing intensity and frequency of anti-Mormon attacks, particularly on social media, making it difficult for younger generations to avoid (0:00-2:01).

Joseph Smith's Example: Joseph Smith is presented as an incredible example of how to handle anti-Mormonism due to the personal and literal nature of the persecution he faced (2:21-3:00).

Joseph's Unconquerable Optimism: Despite facing grave dangers, Joseph Smith considered his perils a "small thing," viewing the envy and wrath of man as his "common lot" (3:42-4:17). He believed he was in an enviable position because he knew he was doing what was right (4:42-5:01).

God's Judgment: Joseph Smith cared only for God's opinion, trusting that God would judge him fairly and that his name would be had for both good and evil, as prophesied (6:45-7:34).

Continuing the Work: Joseph Smith commanded the Saints to rejoice and continue the temple work, especially baptisms for the dead, redoubling their diligence, perseverance, patience, and works (12:35-13:22). He emphasized that opposition is evidence that truth is at work and encouraged fighting "heat with light" (8:28-9:47).

Persecution and Reward: The video concludes by stating that being persecuted places believers in the company of prophets, righteous individuals, and ultimately, Christ, assuring a reward in heaven for enduring faithfully (15:17-15:45).

While the video aims to provide comfort and strength through an apologetic lens, some common criticisms of apologetic approaches, particularly in the context of religious persecution and historical figures, could be applied:

Potential for Downplaying or Oversimplifying Persecution: The video presents Joseph Smith's persecution and modern anti-Mormonism primarily as external forces or a "common lot" (4:14), rather than exploring any potential internal factors or actions that might have contributed to the opposition. Some apologetics are criticized for framing persecution solely as external hostility, potentially overlooking the complexities of historical or social dynamics.

Focus on Internal Cohesion over External Understanding: The video emphasizes a "thick skin, soft heart" approach (0:36), and encourages believers to "produce positivity" (9:25) and "let them speak, let them post" (9:13), rather than engaging directly with criticisms. This can be seen as prioritizing the bolstering of internal faith and unity over a deep, nuanced engagement with external critiques or an unhindered search for truth.

"Us vs. Them" Framing: The narrative frequently positions "anti-Mormons" or "ex-Mormons" (1:54) as an opposing force, with Joseph Smith and the Saints as the persecuted righteous. While this can foster solidarity, some argue that overly defensive apologetics can reinforce an "us vs. them" mentality that may hinder genuine dialogue or understanding across different viewpoints.

Historical Rationalization: The video frames Joseph Smith's attitude as universally positive despite severe hardship. While this showcases his resilience, some critics of apologetics suggest that such narratives can sometimes simplify complex historical figures and events, or rationalize controversial aspects of their lives rather than addressing them head-on. For example, the video mentions his "enviable position" despite being a "prisoner" (4:34-5:01), which might be seen by some as an oversimplification of the severe conditions he faced.

Limited Engagement with Criticisms: The video suggests that engaging directly with negative content in comment sections is "probably not going to turn the tide" (8:54-9:03), advocating instead for positive action. While positive action is valuable, an exclusive focus on it might be seen as sidestepping the intellectual engagement required to address specific criticisms, which some argue can lead to intellectual stagnation within the faith.

Is this created by A.I. or did you watch the presentation and take notes? The reason I posted this particular presentation is because I'm curious as to whether any critics take Halverson seriously or if they ALL look at him askance and say, "He's a fake." "He's a weirdo."

Or as one poster simply said, "He's church broke to the max." As though that explains everything he said in regard to D&C 127:2

It seems as though the honest critic (I know there are probably some) might at least look at this verse and then look in the mirror and simply do a 'gut check'. By the way, I'm not saying that everyone here is an "Anti-Mormon"...although I do think some might qualify. Afterall, this is a board where lurkers and other 'innocents' my drop by here and there looking for guidance or direction in their explorations of the church.

Some here are rather venomous/over the board and exhibit a fair degree of mockery of what some might consider to be sacred.

Regards,
MG

[MetaProf]

I watched it all. It's 15 minutes of commentary on that verse (+ verses 3-4) and the central arguments are (1) there is a lot of "anti-Mormon" stuff that kids on tiktok will be bombarded with and it makes him depressed, but he offers no substance that he thinks is based on falsehood, and (2) opposition to us is evidence that the truth is at work. Just a total horse crap logical fallacy.

He also very clearly loves Joseph Smith to death and is glad to be in his company. You (MG) perhaps have no idea how distasteful that whitewashing of Joseph Smith is to people who actually know what a scumbag he was.

But keep up the good fight, bro. People will just love the company you keep. You and Joseph Smith.

[MetaProf]

I watched it all. It's 15 minutes of commentary on that verse (+ verses 3-4) and the central arguments are (1) there is a lot of "anti-Mormon" stuff that kids on tiktok will be bombarded with and it makes him depressed, but he offers no substance that he thinks is based on falsehood, and (2) opposition to us is evidence that the truth is at work. Just a total horse crap logical fallacy.

He also very clearly loves Joseph Smith to death and is glad to be in his company. You (MG) perhaps have no idea how distasteful that whitewashing of Joseph Smith is to people who actually know what a scumbag he was.

But keep up the good fight, bro. People will just love the company you keep. You and Joseph Smith.

For the record, I didn't say "horse crap"

[MG 2.0]

I watched it all. It's 15 minutes of commentary on that verse (+ verses 3-4) and the central arguments are (1) there is a lot of "anti-Mormon" stuff that kids on tiktok will be bombarded with and it makes him depressed, but he offers no substance that he thinks is based on falsehood, and (2) opposition to us is evidence that the truth is at work. Just a total horse crap logical fallacy.

He also very clearly loves Joseph Smith to death and is glad to be in his company. You (MG) perhaps have no idea how distasteful that whitewashing of Joseph Smith is to people who actually know what a scumbag he was.

But keep up the good fight, bro. People will just love the company you keep. You and Joseph Smith.

For the record, I didn't say "horse crap"

Horse poo poo?

Regards,
MG