29 Wives! - It's official

[Madison54]

Does anyone have access to the LDS ordinance records to see the details of Fanny Alger?

The sealing keys were not restored to Joseph until 1836, so if there was a sealing done it was after they were both dead (Fanny went on to marry someone else).

So the question is....

If Joseph & Fanny weren't sealed (eternal marriage) and they weren't married legally (Joseph already had a legal wife), what type of marriage does the church believe this was when they claim she was one of his wives?

[drumdude]

FairMormon:

Some have wondered how the first plural marriages (such as the Alger marriage) could have occurred before the 1836 restoration of the sealing keys in the Kirtland temple (see D&C 110). This confusion occurs because we tend to conflate several ideas. They were not all initially wrapped together in one doctrine:

• plural marriage - the idea that one could be married (in mortality) to more than one woman: being taught by 1831.
• eternal marriage - the idea that a man and spouse could be sealed and remain together beyond the grave: being taught by 1835.
• "celestial" marriage - the combination of the above two ideas, in which all marriages—plural and monogamous—could last beyond the grave via the sealing powers: implemented by 1840-41.

Thus, the marriage to Fanny would have occurred under the understanding #1 above. The concept of sealing beyond the grave came later. Therefore, the marriage of Joseph and Fanny would have been a plural marriage, but it would not have been a marriage for eternity.

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that priesthood power already gave the ability to ratify certain ordinances as binding on heaven and earth (D&C 1:8), that the sealing power was given mention in earlier revelations such as Helaman 10:7, and that the coming of Elijah and his turning of the hearts of children and fathers was prophesied in 3 Nephi 25:5-6. This supports the view that it is unlikely that Joseph was just making up the sealing power and priesthood power extemporaneously to justify getting married to Fanny and having sexual relations with her.

[malkie]

FairMormon:

Some have wondered how the first plural marriages (such as the Alger marriage) could have occurred before the 1836 restoration of the sealing keys in the Kirtland temple (see D&C 110). This confusion occurs because we tend to conflate several ideas. They were not all initially wrapped together in one doctrine:

• plural marriage - the idea that one could be married (in mortality) to more than one woman: being taught by 1831.
• eternal marriage - the idea that a man and spouse could be sealed and remain together beyond the grave: being taught by 1835.
• "celestial" marriage - the combination of the above two ideas, in which all marriages—plural and monogamous—could last beyond the grave via the sealing powers: implemented by 1840-41.

Thus, the marriage to Fanny would have occurred under the understanding #1 above. The concept of sealing beyond the grave came later. Therefore, the marriage of Joseph and Fanny would have been a plural marriage, but it would not have been a marriage for eternity.

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that priesthood power already gave the ability to ratify certain ordinances as binding on heaven and earth (D&C 1:8), that the sealing power was given mention in earlier revelations such as Helaman 10:7, and that the coming of Elijah and his turning of the hearts of children and fathers was prophesied in 3 Nephi 25:5-6. This supports the view that it is unlikely that Joseph was just making up the sealing power and priesthood power extemporaneously to justify getting married to Fanny and having sexual relations with her.

Plural marriage - illegal, and if there is sexual relations, is more plainly and simply known as adultery.

[Limnor]

FairMormon:

it is unlikely that Joseph was just making up the sealing power and priesthood power extemporaneously to justify getting married to Fanny and having sexual relations with her.

It’s ironic that the FAIR argument doesn’t actually result in a defense of Joseph—it unintentionally highlights the obvious: the theology was constructed after the fact to explain what had already happened.

Drop the “un” from “unlikely” in the final assessment and there it is.

[Madison54]

FairMormon:

Some have wondered how the first plural marriages (such as the Alger marriage) could have occurred before the 1836 restoration of the sealing keys in the Kirtland temple (see D&C 110). This confusion occurs because we tend to conflate several ideas. They were not all initially wrapped together in one doctrine:

• plural marriage - the idea that one could be married (in mortality) to more than one woman: being taught by 1831.
• eternal marriage - the idea that a man and spouse could be sealed and remain together beyond the grave: being taught by 1835.
• "celestial" marriage - the combination of the above two ideas, in which all marriages—plural and monogamous—could last beyond the grave via the sealing powers: implemented by 1840-41.

Thus, the marriage to Fanny would have occurred under the understanding #1 above. The concept of sealing beyond the grave came later. Therefore, the marriage of Joseph and Fanny would have been a plural marriage, but it would not have been a marriage for eternity.

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that priesthood power already gave the ability to ratify certain ordinances as binding on heaven and earth (D&C 1:8), that the sealing power was given mention in earlier revelations such as Helaman 10:7, and that the coming of Elijah and his turning of the hearts of children and fathers was prophesied in 3 Nephi 25:5-6. This supports the view that it is unlikely that Joseph was just making up the sealing power and priesthood power extemporaneously to justify getting married to Fanny and having sexual relations with her.

Yes, I'm aware of the spin that FAIR (and others) put on it

The truth is, it's a hazy part of church history (the "marriage") and that it was not a celestial marriage or a legal marriage.

The date of the marriage was never recorded (that we know of), but it took place between 1833 and 1836. Note that the church lists the marriage as taking place at the later date of 1835-1836 (she was only 16 years old in 1833). I tend to believe from the research I've done that it was earlier than that.

Fanny came to live with the Smiths in 1832 and left Kirtland in 1836. She married Solomon Custer in 1836.

There's too much evidence for the church to just ignore that Joseph & Fanny did have romantic relationship. That they continue to list Fanny as Joseph's first plural "wife" is most likely because they are attempting to make sure members believe it was not an affair.

But if members would just look a bit into it, they'd probably wonder about that, LOL.

[I Have Questions]

Does anyone have access to the LDS ordinance records to see the details of Fanny Alger?

The sealing keys were not restored to Joseph until 1836, so if there was a sealing done it was after they were both dead (Fanny went on to marry someone else).

So the question is....

If Joseph & Fanny weren't sealed (eternal marriage) and they weren't married legally (Joseph already had a legal wife), what type of marriage does the church believe this was when they claim she was one of his wives?

I would also like to see the evidence for concluding a marriage took place between Joseph & Fanny.

[drumdude]

The sealing keys were not restored to Joseph until 1836, so if there was a sealing done it was after they were both dead (Fanny went on to marry someone else).

So the question is....

If Joseph & Fanny weren't sealed (eternal marriage) and they weren't married legally (Joseph already had a legal wife), what type of marriage does the church believe this was when they claim she was one of his wives?

I would also like to see the evidence for concluding a marriage took place between Joseph & Fanny.

I think for Mormons, if he did that with her, then the only conclusion is they were married.

Q.E.D.

[I Have Questions]

I would also like to see the evidence for concluding a marriage took place between Joseph & Fanny.

I think for Mormons, if he did that with her, then the only conclusion is they were married.

Q.E.D.

I agree. It amounts to nothing more than that. There is zero real evidence for concluding that Joseph and Fanny were married.

[Rivendale]

I think for Mormons, if he did that with her, then the only conclusion is they were married.

Q.E.D.

I agree. It amounts to nothing more than that. There is zero real evidence for concluding that Joseph and Fanny were married.

Bigamy was illegal at the time so it couldn't be a marriage. And if it was a sealing why keep anything secret? And why was Emma so late getting this sealing?

[malkie]

I agree. It amounts to nothing more than that. There is zero real evidence for concluding that Joseph and Fanny were married.

Bigamy was illegal at the time so it couldn't be a marriage. And if it was a sealing why keep anything secret? And why was Emma so late getting this sealing?

I believe MG told us earlier that it was reasonable to think that, up to the point where Joseph had already been sealed to 20 or so of his "wives", Emma was so upset that Joseph dared not approach her to be sealed to him - or some such story.