The Long and Winding Road (To Ruin) or Eight Days a Week (Of Woe): Mormon Apostle Blames the Beatles for Society's Ills

[MG 2.0]

I think that you may be mistaken. Philo, out of the five (Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Philo of Alexandria, and Origen), is the only one that did not teach concerning a literal resurrection of the body and instead focused on the soul’s ongoing or immortal life. All five of the early Church Fathers I've mentioned included multiple “heavens” or graded heavenly realms in their early teachings.

Regards,
MG

I’m not denying that some Fathers talk about “many heavens” or “degrees of glory.”

That's a good start.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

I’m not denying that some Fathers talk about “many heavens” or “degrees of glory.”

That's a good start.

Regards,
MG

My prediction was close. I had “It’s possible they had teachings that were lost.” Maybe a missing scroll.

Appealing to “multiple heavens” in the Fathers sounds promising until you look at what they actually meant. Once you check the sources, the connection to D&C 76 falls apart fast.

[Shulem]

I’m not denying that some Fathers talk about “many heavens” or “degrees of glory.” I’m saying none of them teach the specifically Mormon idea of resurrected humans being eternally assigned to three separate kingdoms of glory the way D&C 76 does.

They either describe the cosmic layers of creation, or different degrees of reward within the one state of salvation—which is not the same thing.

Joseph Smith didn't give a rat's ass what the early fathers may or may not have said while publishing the Book of Mormon and starting his new church. He condemned all other religions as apostate leading back to the original Christian church which he claimed fell from grace. The Book of Mormon teaches heaven or hell -- no degrees, no levels, no differing values of salvation. I touch on this important point in a thread up in the Celestial forum:

That Same Spirit

Mormons today who try and find similarities to what early church fathers said in order to support Smith ignore the absence of such things in the Book of Mormon which includes the 400+ years that followed after Christ setting up his church among the Nephites. There are no Three Degrees of Glory mentioned therein! Mormon and Moroni had plenty of opportunity to mention that but instead we get things like infant baptism, etc. The Book of Mormon teaches heaven or hell as taught by Christians in Smith's day. But Smith changed that later on in order to set up new programs and entice his ardent followers with promises of sexual delights in the hereafter.

[Limnor]

I’m not denying that some Fathers talk about “many heavens” or “degrees of glory.” I’m saying none of them teach the specifically Mormon idea of resurrected humans being eternally assigned to three separate kingdoms of glory the way D&C 76 does.

They either describe the cosmic layers of creation, or different degrees of reward within the one state of salvation—which is not the same thing.

Joseph Smith didn't give a rat's ass what the early fathers may or may not have said while publishing the Book of Mormon and starting his new church. He condemned all other religions as apostate leading back to the original Christian church which he claimed fell from grace. The Book of Mormon teaches heaven or hell -- no degrees, no levels, no differing values of salvation. I touch on this important point in a thread up in the Celestial forum:

That Same Spirit

Mormons today who try and find similarities to what early church fathers said in order to support Smith ignore the absence of such things in the Book of Mormon which includes the 400+ years that followed after Christ setting up his church among the Nephites. There are no Three Degrees of Glory mentioned therein! Mormon and Moroni had plenty of opportunity to mention that but instead we get things like infant baptism, etc. The Book of Mormon teaches heaven or hell as taught by Christians in Smith's day. But Smith changed that later on in order to set up new programs and entice his ardent followers with promises of sexual delights in the hereafter.

Yep. While thinking through this discussion I discovered that the Church Fathers apologetic for D&C 76 didn’t start until around 1845. Joseph wasn’t thinking about them at all, apparently.

[MG 2.0]

That's a good start.

Regards,
MG

My prediction was close. I had “It’s possible they had teachings that were lost.” Maybe a missing scroll.

Appealing to “multiple heavens” in the Fathers sounds promising until you look at what they actually meant. Once you check the sources, the connection to D&C 76 falls apart fast.

I'm not saying that there is a direct connection verbatim. It's correlated. It's just another one of those things that Joseph got right...and the origins (pun intended) go back to the Origen-al ( ) Church Fathers.

I think I'd like to do a 'wait see' until we hear from Bill. He seems to be anxious to share as long as he knows people are listening. I think he may have an audience now.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Joseph Smith didn't give a rat's ass what the early fathers may or may not have said while publishing the Book of Mormon and starting his new church. He condemned all other religions as apostate leading back to the original Christian church which he claimed fell from grace. The Book of Mormon teaches heaven or hell -- no degrees, no levels, no differing values of salvation. I touch on this important point in a thread up in the Celestial forum:

That Same Spirit

Mormons today who try and find similarities to what early church fathers said in order to support Smith ignore the absence of such things in the Book of Mormon which includes the 400+ years that followed after Christ setting up his church among the Nephites. There are no Three Degrees of Glory mentioned therein! Mormon and Moroni had plenty of opportunity to mention that but instead we get things like infant baptism, etc. The Book of Mormon teaches heaven or hell as taught by Christians in Smith's day. But Smith changed that later on in order to set up new programs and entice his ardent followers with promises of sexual delights in the hereafter.

Yep.

Nope.

Not everything is in the Book of Mormon. And I wouldn't expect it to be. For one thing, the prophets in the Book of Mormon did not have direct access to the doctrines that were apparently given to the five early Church Fathers I've mentioned...and that Joseph Smith essentially grabbed out of thin air, along with a bunch of other interesting doctrines that may have ancient origins.

Let's wait to hear from Bill, shall we?

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

It's just another one of those things that Joseph got right...

Just another one of those things? You do know that when you say that, you're admitting that there are many things he did not get right! For example, take Facsimile No. 3 and see how there are many things he just did not get right.

Right?

[Limnor]

My prediction was close. I had “It’s possible they had teachings that were lost.” Maybe a missing scroll.

Appealing to “multiple heavens” in the Fathers sounds promising until you look at what they actually meant. Once you check the sources, the connection to D&C 76 falls apart fast.

I'm not saying that there is a direct connection verbatim. It's correlated. It's just another one of those things that Joseph got right...and the origins (pun intended) go back to the Origen-al ( ) Church Fathers.

I think I'd like to do a 'wait see' until we hear from Bill. He seems to be anxious to share as long as he knows people are listening. I think he may have an audience now.

Regards,
MG

That was my second prediction: “Joseph got the feel right.”

We went from: “They taught multiple heavens based on worthiness” to “Okay, not literally. But it’s correlated.”

“Correlation” is doing a lot of work here. If something is “correlated,” it should at least share the same category.

Prediction for Bill’s response—some variation of:

1) Correlation isn’t causation
2) Correlation isn’t meaningful if the categories differ
3) “Similar vibes” is not historical continuity

[Limnor]

Yep.

Nope.

Not everything is in the Book of Mormon. And I wouldn't expect it to be. For one thing, the prophets in the Book of Mormon did not have direct access to the doctrines that were apparently given to the five early Church Fathers I've mentioned...and that Joseph Smith essentially grabbed out of thin air, along with a bunch of other interesting doctrines that may have ancient origins.

Let's wait to hear from Bill, shall we?

Regards,
MG

Okay—but if the Book of Mormon is “the fullness of the gospel,” and its authors are portrayed as receiving direct revelations from Christ Himself, then why is the fullness missing the core doctrine of the plan?

[Shulem]

Nope.

Not everything is in the Book of Mormon.

What's in the Book of Mormon *IS* the doctrine of heaven and hell only, no degrees of glory. It's either damned or saved. There is no in-between.

Read the thread and come up and make whatever point you want. Enter the meat grinder, if you will.

That Same Spirit