Thou Shalt Not Stream

[huckelberry]

With a few hours to reflect on the talk. At the portions reviewed in the link I find a thought or two. I thought it was a well crafted, intelligent message for people with doubts who want to stay and believe. He proposed accepting that nobody knows all the doctrine and information. One accepts the limitation, associates with believers, prays, keeps active in church service.

That would be the way it is done.

Thanks Huck. So you admit that he provided no direction whatsoever for actually addressing specific concerns, such as charges of glass looking?

You said you don't see where I'm coming from, but it sounds like you're saying the exact same thing as me except in a different manner. I agree it was "well crafted" "intelligent" and that instead of looking for answers, one should "associate with believers". This is just "glass half full" way of saying "stay in the information vacuum".

Gadianton, I can see your point. I think giving it second thoughts I was not the sort of person able to make the suggested limits of enquiry. Well, church authorities have long, I guess always, told people to avoid and not to trust antimormons or Mormon critics. I somewhat did and somewhat didn't follow that instruction.

[msnobody]

Latter-day Saints need to come to the realization that the veil was torn and we have direct access to Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ the son (The Way, The Truth, The Life). In fact, Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. The church and her leadership (mere men) attempt to usurp Christ, and sit in His throne as mediator. God says in Isaiah 42:8, “ I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.”

AND

Hebrew 1, “ Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

AND

When we believe God who provided Himself as the propitiation for sin, He seats us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6). He seats us with Him. In other words, Luke 22:69, “seated at the right hand of the power of God,” and “who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places Ephesians 1:3.

[Gadianton]

I somewhat did and somewhat didn't follow that instruction.

And look what happened to you, right? Same with me. A friend from long ago who lived in the Sea Org found his way out of that even. He was living in the compound. The story as I recall is that he was shown advanced materials from somebody else living there, stuff above his level to see, and it triggered his BS meter and he was done. It took a while, but they eventually let him out (and harassed him endlessly thereafter). So even with the Sea Org, we could say that if somebody is dead set on answers they'll find a way to get them.

[msnobody]

I somewhat did and somewhat didn't follow that instruction.

And look what happened to you, right? Same with me. A friend from long ago who lived in the Sea Org found his way out of that even. He was living in the compound. The story as I recall is that he was shown advanced materials from somebody else living there, stuff above his level to see, and it triggered his BS meter and he was done. It took a while, but they eventually let him out (and harassed him endlessly thereafter). So even with the Sea Org, we could say that if somebody is dead set on answers they'll find a way to get them.

I was at a conference once where someone came to harass a speaker, Karen Pressley, whose book Escaping Scientology was about to be released. There was also a woman, Cathy Norman, from COS, who would attend Christian apologetics conferences to monitor what was being said about Scientology. At least, I was told that was her purpose for being there. Perhaps to monitor who may be in attendance, but that is just an assumption of mine. I know one of the two I attended where she was present was an Evangelical Missions to Non-Christian Religions (EMNR) conference.

[huckelberry]

Gad, I find your description of the siloed BYU student rather frightening so perhaps do not think clearly about it. Your point that my methods did not keep me but I never had any chance of being siloed. I read both Howe's Mormonism Exposed and Bennett's Nauvoo book in the public library at age 13. At that time I dismissed the material as antimormon lies and exaggeration. Perhaps a question mark was left. I quit believing over the Book of Mormon which did not need accessing anti material.

Well there was an article I read about the development of corn by long period of cultivation doubling down on the hard to escape question of where are the Indians in the Book of Mormon. I was also troubled by the degree the book contained American Protestant teaching. Then there was a negro question.

[Limnor]

the veil was torn

I think about church attendance from time to time, but mostly from a place where I feel like I’m “supposed” to join a church. I’ve attended several different denominational services, from Catholic to Protestant, Greek Orthodox (even once in Thessalonica—though it was all Greek to me) to Assemblies of God full Pentecostal. I’m not sure what I’m meant to be looking for, though I ‘d want caring for the poor, widows and orphans to matter. I suppose if you tugged at it, that could come from an autobiographical place—I come from a broken home, so Freud might say I have some abandonment issues. And he may be right—I care about people who didn’t get protected.

What’s funny to me is I feel more comfortable—at least online—with people like Doc Cam or Gad, or even Whiskey, because they aren’t faking it. Sure, these are online personas curated over years, but the expressed thoughts seem genuine and may reflect things they can’t say out loud. I don’t know.

For myself, I don’t like authoritative structure and relinquishing submission, particularly when it comes to conscience, to another human (ironically I served 24 years in the Navy—I’m a contradiction). In real life, derivative authority too often turns into replacement, and if you’ve ever served under a power-hungry Chief, that would become crystal clear. I think Mormon thought would call it unrighteous dominion.

All that vulnerability aside, first let me say that while I agree that the veil has been torn, i still wonder about the implications and wouldn’t mind exploring this with you if you are willing.

If the veil is torn, why did the apostolic church still exercise discipline and authority? And If Christ alone mediates, what exactly is the function of teachers in Ephesians 4?

[msnobody]

the veil was torn

I think about church attendance from time to time, but mostly from a place where I feel like I’m “supposed” to join a church. I’ve attended several different denominational services, from Catholic to Protestant, Greek Orthodox (even once in Thessalonica—though it was all Greek to me) to Assemblies of God full Pentecostal. I’m not sure what I’m meant to be looking for, though I ‘d want caring for the poor, widows and orphans to matter. I suppose if you tugged at it, that could come from an autobiographical place—I come from a broken home, so Freud might say I have some abandonment issues. And he may be right—I care about people who didn’t get protected.

What’s funny to me is I feel more comfortable—at least online—with people like Doc Cam or Gad, or even Whiskey, because they aren’t faking it. Sure, these are online personas curated over years, but the expressed thoughts seem genuine and may reflect things they can’t say out loud. I don’t know.

For myself, I don’t like authoritative structure and relinquishing submission, particularly when it comes to conscience, to another human (ironically I served 24 years in the Navy—I’m a contradiction). In real life, derivative authority too often turns into replacement, and if you’ve ever served under a power-hungry Chief, that would become crystal clear. I think Mormon thought would call it unrighteous dominion.

All that vulnerability aside, first let me say that while I agree that the veil has been torn, i still wonder about the implications and wouldn’t mind exploring this with you if you are willing.

If the veil is torn, why did the apostolic church still exercise discipline and authority? And If Christ alone mediates, what exactly is the function of teachers in Ephesians 4?

From what I gather from Scripture we are to not neglect meeting together in Christian community. I’ve heard it said that the main thing to look for in a church is a strong pulpit ministry, where the full word of God is taught. I’d say that would probably be predominately expository teaching. In our former church, I directed the church library ministry, where I was blessed to have witnessed others ministering to people outside of the ministries of the church. Had I not worked in our church library as a volunteer, I would have never known of the many of the areas of personal ministry fellow church members were involved in. I think a church that teaches the full word of God naturally ministers to those God sends their way whether it be the poor, widows, the oppressed, etc. It should also lead to individual ministry outside the regular ministries of the church. I guess that is where being all things to all people would come into play.

Sure, I’d be willing to explore this further, maybe at a slow pace, as there is a lot going on with me/us right now.

Like you, I have grown close to people I’ve met here online. There are a couple of people that care about my physical and spiritual wellbeing, and I theirs. I have always appreciated the genuineness of online posters, and the privilege of doing life together, no matter our likenesses or differences. I think we are meant to not do life alone.

Teachers teach the word of God. We spur one another on toward holiness (sanctification). I think you may be alluding to church discipline, which would serve that same purpose. I have witnessed church discipline twice where two unrepentant church members were removed from membership, having been announced from the pulpit. One was for ripping people off and another who was abusing 4th grade girls. Had these two been repentant, I firmly believe the church leadership would have had them face the legal consequences of their crimes. In the end, I know that the latter is still serving his sentence in prison.

[Limnor]

This phrase of yours really landed for me, msnobody: we are not meant to do life alone. I guess my question is a little more pointed, though I appreciate your voice and comments. Maybe my thinking echoes the questions of authority Joseph filled with tales of priesthood restoration. If Christ alone mediates and the veil is torn, then the authority exercised by leaders—especially in discipline—is grounded by what authority? Is it granted by those who accept the authority, or does it carry some delegated weight? Is apostolic authority the default that we should think about and accept, or is there something else? I really like your comment about teachers, and see the idea about being part of a body as how that plays out.