2 Ne 2:13 last sentence

[sock puppet]

"And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away."

But, if there was no creation of things, what things existed to vanish away?

Why would they vanish without a God-creation? Entropy?

From where is energy being sucked away to infuse here on earth, this God creation, so that it does not simply vanish away?

Here it is posited that neither we nor the earth would exist without having been created by God. Of course, how was God then created? According to Mormonism there is an infinite regression back in time of one God creating another.

Now fools will rush in and proclaim that these preplexities are not necessary to salvation, so don't trifle your little minds with them. Tsk tsk. Why then would God have revealed them to a prophet if they were unnecessary? Why did the prophet scratch them out on heavy gold plates for Moroni to have to huck around the Americas such unnecessary verbiage? Plates that were mere props so Joseph Smith could simply put his head in a hat and magically see the verbiage without studying the scratchings on those gold plates?

[NorthboundZax]

It is curious that a supposed prophet of the Lord resorts to a low-grade apologetic as part of his testifying.

[yellowstone123]

Interesting: I saw an ad today for a new book by Dennis Prager titled If There Be No God.

[Shulem]

"And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away."

But, if there was no creation of things, what things existed to vanish away?

Well said, sock puppet.

Smith gaffed while pretending to read divine words on a seer stone. Science proves it's an absolute contradiction in terms because when something is said to vanish it refers to something that already exists and then it withdraws or departs. Here we see that Smith screwed the pooch in making such a stupid statement. If something never could have existed it can't ever vanish away because it never existed in the first place! Smith should have chosen another word rather than "vanish" to make his point. I'm afraid he got caught with his hands in the Isaiah (51:6) cookie jar and failed to understand the implications of what he was trying to stress in his attempt to talk like Isaiah.

[Shulem]

"And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away."

Again, if "things" do not exist in the first place then it cannot "vanish" and go "away" as explained by Joseph Smith's pet-boy, Nephi. The statement is absolute nonsense and contradicts reality in the most basic way. God never said such a stupid thing! Using the word vanish in this context is not justified but is entirely incorrect in every way.

On the other hand, for the sake of argument and just for kicks, suppose God exists and created all things by the power of his word in which things may act and be acted upon and afterward God said, "Everything I've created no longer exists." Then, it could be argued that all things would vanish away into nothingness but in order to do so it must have existed in the first place.

[Shulem]

And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

This:

...nothing could ever exist.

[Physics Guy]

I'd bet a beer that Smith had been drinking when he wrote those verses, and they seemed brilliant to him at the time.

[Shulem]

I'd bet a beer that Smith had been drinking when he wrote those verses, and they seemed brilliant to him at the time.

It's very possible, if not highly likely, that Smith was narrating those specific points while his face was buried in a hat and pretending to read a divine script that appeared and disappeared by the miraculous means of God who knows everything and anything about the universe -- more especially the complexities of the English language.

The words Smith chose in describing how things would be if there was no such thing as God are lacking in intelligent design and is a rip from Isaiah in twisting his words into something he never expressed. At this point, Smith had already lifted two chapters of Isaiah (48 & 49) and pasted them into 1 Nephi (20 & 21) and within 1 Nephi, it says:

• "I did rehearse unto them the words of Isaiah" 1 Ne 15:20

• "I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet  Isaiah" 1 Ne 19:23

Later, after the gaffe in 2 Nephi 2:13 ("vanished"), Smith cites more KJV Isaiah verbatim in 2 Nephi 8:6 which reads:

Lift up your eyes to the  heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall  vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment; and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner.

You'll note that the use of the word "vanish" in this case is properly used. Something is being observed and is readily visible to the eye of those who are conceiving the information but then suddenly disappears or vanishes from all sight and goes away. Smith was familiar with this verse and the context in which it's expressed. Undoubtedly, he was also familiar with how Hebrews 8:13 seems to pay reference to Isaiah: "that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." This concept also expressed by St. Paul in making his Charity never faileth address: "but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

Clearly, the use of the word "vanished" in the Book of Mormon is improperly used and contradicts itself. Thus we see, the script came from the mind of man, not God! It's proof positive!

I bear testimony that the Book of Mormon is the work of man and that Smith made it all up out of thin air.

Amen.

[huckelberry]

I'd bet a beer that Smith had been drinking when he wrote those verses, and they seemed brilliant to him at the time.

,, ,, , ,,,

Clearly, the use of the word "vanished" in the Book of Mormon is improperly used and contradicts itself. Thus we see, the script came from the mind of man, not God! It's proof positive!

I bear testimony that the Book of Mormon is the work of man and that Smith made it all up out of thin air.

Amen.

I thought the claim was some fellow named Nephi made the colorful and clumsy way of saying things would not exist if there was no creator. Well it is possible Joseph Smith came up with the melodramatic phrase.

[Shulem]

I thought the claim was some fellow named Nephi made the colorful and clumsy way of saying things would not exist if there was no creator. Well it is possible Joseph Smith came up with the melodramatic phrase.

I see nothing wrong with making the claim that nothing could exist if there wasn't a God or a higher intelligence to bring things (physical materials of atomic nature) into organized existence. Joseph Smith was keen on those things and touched on it several times throughout his ministry. In fact, Smith made several very intelligent statements during his career. But the one in Nephi is a low point and a serious mistake/blunder on his part and yet he never realized it later on or he might have corrected it like he did the king's name.

Now granted, the 1828 Websters Dictionary defines "VAN'ISHED" as an adjective Having no perceptible existence but this follows the definition of "VAN'ISH" a verb intransitive [Latin vanesco, vanus, vain, or its root; Eng. to wane. The primary sense is to withdraw or depart. Definitions in Websters are:

1. To disappear; to pass from a visible to an invisible state; as, vapor vanishes from the sight by being dissipated. Light vanishes, when the rays of the illuminating body are intercepted; darkness vanishes before the rising sun.

2. To disappear; to pass beyond the limit of vision; as, a ship vanishes from the sight of spectators on land.

3. To disappear; to pass away; to be annihilated or lost. How cheering is the well founded hope of enjoying delights which can never vanish!