DCP quotes anti-Semite to describe this forum’s membership

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drumdude
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DCP quotes anti-Semite to describe this forum’s membership

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“DCP” wrote: As is my (perhaps unfortunate) habit, I spent a few minutes today reading at an online site where the dominating spirit seems to be one of anti-religious mockery, contempt, and derision, where a perpetually-cultivated sneer appears to have taken on the character of a permanent rictus. And I couldn’t help but think of a passage from the Anglo-French writer, historian, and parliamentarian Hilaire Belloc (1870-1953):
The Barbarian hopes — and that is the mark of him — that he can have his cake and eat it too. He will consume what civilization has slowly produced after generations of selection and effort, but he will not be at pains to replace such goods, nor indeed has he a comprehension of the virtue that has brought them into being. Discipline seems to him irrational, on which account he is ever marvelling that civilization should have offended him with priests and soldiers. . . . In a word, the Barbarian is discoverable everywhere in this, that he cannot make: that he can befog and destroy but that he cannot sustain; and of every Barbarian in the decline or peril of every civilization exactly that has been true.

We sit by and watch the barbarian. We tolerate him in the long stretches of peace, we are not afraid. We are tickled by his irreverence; his comic inversion of our old certitudes and our fixed creed refreshes us; we laugh. But as we laugh we are watched by large and awful faces from beyond, and on these faces there are no smiles.
“A thoughtful SeN commenter” wrote: It surprises me you'd quote Belloc, a famously bigoted man, but especially that line. After all, I'm fairly sure Belloc might've considered members of your own faith to be a foreign element in society. After all, one need only look at his attitude towards Jews. That bit about having one's cake and eating it is something Belloc used ten years later, in another book:
You cannot have your cake and eat it too, you cannot at the same time have present in the world this ubiquitous fluid, yet closely organized Jewish community, and at the same time each of the individuals composing it treated as though they were not members of the nation which makes them all they are.
Jews, Belloc says, are an alien element in the body-politic; incapable of belonging to the culture. Even within the Barbarians chapter you quote, he shows some pretty bigoted viewpoints. Whether it's the explicit eugenicism in the opening paragraphs of the chapter, or the comments about art that would not go amiss at the N@zi Degenerate Art exhibition, or the description of "pragmatists" strutting like a... Well, suffice it to say, it's a racial slur and a considerable indicator as to who he considered a "Barbarian".

Belloc's evocation of this imagined past, of a Europe united and joined under Christendom, is a fantasy. Neither Europe nor Christianity had been united prior to that point, except perhaps as it existed briefly under the Western Roman Empire, and that a pagan empire until pretty much right before its collapse. Belief was neither consistent nor universal. And most of that history was lived under the tyranny of kings and petty lords. The fruits of what he considers civilization were a product of the people he snears at.

The man's ideas are just another reactionary decline narrative. The Europe that embraced his ideas consumed itself in the fires of the most horrific war imaginable, and gave rise to an increasingly secular society that actually did unify Europe into a union. Justice was achieved by the Barbarians, not him or his ilk.
It may surprise him that DCP wrote it, but it doesn’t surprise us. After all, G K Chesterton is one of DCP’s heroes too.

Perhaps DCP’s next book to not finish could be “The Final Solution to the Ex-Mormon Problem.”
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Rivendale
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Re: DCP quotes anti-Semite to describe this forum’s membership

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Then he proceeds to use the tired old trope like he has done with Brigham. Complex man of his time immersed in a bigoted culture. Then another thoughtful comment.
Peterson’s citation is even more damning. Belloc’s writing reveals blatant racism:

“The Barbarian when he has graduated to be a "pragmatist," struts like a ni**ger (censorship mine) in evening clothes, and believes himself superior to the gift of reason, or free to maintain that definition, limit, quantity and contradiction are little childish things which he has outgrown.”
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Re: DCP quotes anti-Semite to describe this forum’s membership

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The nuance and leeway that DCP seeks for brother Brigham and these anti-Semites is strangely absent for Trump and MAGA.

I would strongly argue that you could apply the same rationalizations to explain away every single one of Trump’s actions that DCP disagrees with.

This is what happens when you live a lifetime devoted to such a moral morass as Mormonism. You develop the skills to rationalize away anything whenever it happens to suit you. You lose sight of the wider objective picture.

I don’t think I’ve met a greater moral relativist than DCP, to be quite honest. He really has no anchor except to Mormonism and its leaders. A strange way to live one’s life, in my opinion.
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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: DCP quotes anti-Semite to describe this forum’s membership

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Good grief! By quoting and doubling down on Belloc, the Afore is effectively dismantling what little is left of his own reputation and legacy. Every new post further cements the Afore's alignment with white supremacist ideology. I suspect he’ll realize the damage to his legacy within the next 24-48 hours and scrub the entire thread. You truly couldn’t script a more self-inflicted disaster. Folks, you just can't make this stuff up.
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Re: DCP quotes anti-Semite to describe this forum’s membership

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Hilaire Belloc wrote:The Barbarian hopes — and that is the mark of him — that he can have his cake and eat it too. He will consume what civilization has slowly produced after generations of selection and effort, but he will not be at pains to replace such goods, nor indeed has he a comprehension of the virtue that has brought them into being. Discipline seems to him irrational, on which account he is ever marvelling that civilization should have offended him with priests and soldiers. . . . In a word, the Barbarian is discoverable everywhere in this, that he cannot make: that he can befog and destroy but that he cannot sustain; and of every Barbarian in the decline or peril of every civilization exactly that has been true.

We sit by and watch the barbarian. We tolerate him in the long stretches of peace, we are not afraid. We are tickled by his irreverence; his comic inversion of our old certitudes and our fixed creed refreshes us; we laugh. But as we laugh we are watched by large and awful faces from beyond, and on these faces there are no smiles.
Huh. Well, I have been interested in this idea that the critics of the Church have nothing to offer in compensation for the loss of the Church, and wondered where it might be coming from. Here we go.

If we pass over, for the moment, Belloc's rancid views and think of the word "barbarian" as "the outsider in our midst," I have to ask who the outsider is supposed to be in the United States of America. Who, then, are the guardians of civilization? What is civilization?

Lots of American citizens went to the polls and voted to make Donald Trump the guardian of civilization. They did so partly because they saw the Democrats as the enemies of civilization. We see how that has turned out. Still, a certain number of Trump's supporters, especially those who are friends of Israel, think things are going just great. Iran has been pummeled by the forces of "civilization."

A 20th-century thinker for whom I have a lot more respect said the following:
Bertrand Russell wrote:“The generals who commanded Roman armies in the days when the Empire was most rapidly expanding were for the most part Epicurean sceptics. Their motives were the crudest possible: to plunder the gold reserve of temples, keeping half and distributing the other half among the soldiers; to destroy cities which were commercial rivals of Rome; and so on. The later Romans, pagan and Christian alike, were sunk in superstition; they became increasingly fanatical down to the fall of Constantinople in 1453, and every increase of fanaticism brought fresh defeat.

The same sort of thing is true of the Mohammedans. In the great days of their early conquests, their leaders were sceptics, who had at first opposed the Prophet’s new sect, and only joined in when they saw that there was money in it. This sceptical attitude lasted all through the great days of the Caliphate; when fanaticism began to prevail, loss of military power came with it.

In the sixteenth century, the most fanatical of the great powers was Spain. In spite of every advantage—a brave and warlike population, a superb geographical position, and all the resources of the Indies—Spanish power collapsed. The Jews and Moors, the most industrious and civilized inhabitants of the peninsula, were expelled, to the great detriment of the state. Holland was lost through unwillingness to practise toleration. After the long fruitless devastation of the wars of religion, when the Peace of Westphalia and the collapse of the English puritans had shown that no extremists could win, the greatest share of wealth and power came to Dutch and English latitudinarians. The Revocation of the Edicts of Nantes, by transferring useful industries from France to England, prepared the way for the English victory in the Seven Years’ War.

At no stage in this long history was victory correlated with fanaticism.

The most recent history shows that in this respect there is no change. The British entered the second world war as a heavy duty, by no means in the spirit of crusade. The Russians and Americans were goaded into self-defence by unprovoked attacks. Only the Nazis were inspired by fanaticism, and their fanaticism contributed not a little to their downfall. After their victory the Allies were surprised to find how little progress the Germans had made towards their construction of atomic bombs. This was largely because they would not employ physicists who were Jews or Anti-Nazis. Their fanaticism also greatly stimulated the resistance movements in conquered territories. I think there can be no doubt that if their rulers had been more rational, they would have won the war, since they would not have attacked Russia or encouraged the Japanese to attack America.

Those who hold that fanaticism can only be defeated by a rival fanaticism cannot appeal to facts in support of their opinion. Victory in modern war depends primarily upon natural resources, industrial and scientific skill, and shrewdness in those who determine policy. Of these requisites, skill and shrewdness are not so likely to be found among fanatics as among men whose outlook is more nearly scientific. Fanatics are unwilling to accept scientific discoveries made by their enemies, and therefore soon fall behind those whose outlook is more cosmopolitan.“
— Why Fanaticism Brings Defeat, BBC broadcast transcript (23 September 1948)
Man, even where Russell has debateable readings of history, his view is so far superior to Belloc's. Belloc has no room for criticism of any kind. There are the adults in the room, who protect civilization, and then the foolish non-adults who think they are clever in their fiddling while Rome burns. I am most happy when there is room for some criticism. The critics should not run the show, certainly, but it is not as though they have no salutary function.

I am reminded of John Stewart's takedown of Crossfire. John Stewart is not necessarily the person to have as president of the US, but he sure did us all a favor when he called out the stupidity of Crossfire. Unfortunately, he was too late. Crossfire was tiddlywinks compared to the propaganda and division we are saturated with every day.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
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Re: DCP quotes anti-Semite to describe this forum’s membership

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Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2026 7:02 pm
I am reminded of John Stewart's takedown of Crossfire. John Stewart is not necessarily the person to have as president of the US, but he sure did us all a favor when he called out the stupidity of Crossfire. Unfortunately, he was too late. Crossfire was tiddlywinks compared to the propaganda and division we are saturated with every day.
John Stewart often criticises himself, his allies, and his own political beliefs. He is introspective, knows what he doesn't know, and doesn't lie to prop himself up. I used to think that was a sign of integrity and strength.

Trump has unfortunately shown us that it's actually probably a critical weakness in the modern political world.

People rally around the idea of us versus them. This period of history where peaceful rational democracies work together in peace doesn't seem like it will last the rest of the century, in my uneducated guestimation.
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Re: DCP quotes anti-Semite to describe this forum’s membership

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drumdude wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2026 7:34 pm
John Stewart often criticises himself, his allies, and his own political beliefs. He is introspective, knows what he doesn't know, and doesn't lie to prop himself up. I used to think that was a sign of integrity and strength.

Trump has unfortunately shown us that it's actually probably a critical weakness in the modern political world.

People rally around the idea of us versus them. This period of history where peaceful rational democracies work together in peace doesn't seem like it will last the rest of the century, in my uneducated guestimation.
Yeah, we are overrun by fanatics of one stripe or another. As Russell rightly observed, the antidote to fanaticism is not more fanaticism of a different brand. It is cosmopolitanism, and true cosmopolitanism includes even those who hold ideologies we disagree with.

Honestly, I have seen fanaticism among apologists and critics. I tend not to agree with the fanatics or fanatical tendencies in either camp.

Oh, and it is true that John Stewart is certainly not a fanatic. He is, however, a critic, and he fills a salutary role.

Trump is an enemy of civilization who puts himself forward as the fanatic's idea of a savior of civilization, the fanatic they wrongly believed they needed to fight the fanatics on the Left.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
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Dr Moore
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Re: DCP quotes anti-Semite to describe this forum’s membership

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I’ll just take a moment to remind the readers that Daniel Peterson accepted a substantial donation to Interpreter from yours truly in return for his plain and straightforward commitment to ignore this board and cease bad talking its members for the long term, and to encourage readers of his blog to do the same. That was years ago. Of course he broke that promise right away, and in so doing he is a proven liar. All of this is documented in threads below. So Dan, a hat tip and head nod to your shameless bad faith.
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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: DCP quotes anti-Semite to describe this forum’s membership

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2026 1:03 am
I’ll just take a moment to remind the readers that Daniel Peterson accepted a substantial donation to Interpreter from yours truly in return for his plain and straightforward commitment to ignore this board and cease bad talking its members for the long term, and to encourage readers of his blog to do the same. That was years ago. Of course he broke that promise right away, and in so doing he is a proven liar. All of this is documented in threads below. So Dan, a hat tip and head nod to your shameless bad faith.
It's disgraceful that Daniel pocketed your donation under false and fraudulent pretenses. At this point, Daniel's word is more fictional then the 2 books he promised BYU he would finish in exchange for his paid sabbatical, but then conveniently "forgot" to finish. Daniel's life and career are filled with documented lies, deceit and plagiarism.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
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Re: DCP quotes anti-Semite to describe this forum’s membership

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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2026 5:03 pm
Good grief! By quoting and doubling down on Belloc, the Afore is effectively dismantling what little is left of his own reputation and legacy. Every new post further cements the Afore's alignment with white supremacist ideology. I suspect he’ll realize the damage to his legacy within the next 24-48 hours and scrub the entire thread. You truly couldn’t script a more self-inflicted disaster. Folks, you just can't make this stuff up.
He reads them differently? A racist slur is read differently? Reminds me of that commercial from the 80s regarding drugs. The one where the egg gets cracked and put in the frying pan. That thread is a representation of what Mormonism does to a brain.
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