Mopologetics and "Star Wars"

[Marcus]

Mm, dunno about that. A big plot weakness in Star Wars is how all the characters keep finding each other In. The. Galaxy.

Even if the galaxy far, far away is much smaller than the Milky Way, it has to be way too big for people to just keep bumping into each other like that.

But maybe all the events take place in popular resorts, and Vader likes cruises. That would raise the odds of meeting by a lot.

A Limited Astronomy Theory, if you will.

Lol. Excellent.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

“Hey Google, show me 'the Afore’s Ultimate Retreat’ and don’t hold back on the chicken fried steak.”

[Doctor Scratch]

I believe that he engages in apologetics partly because he is concerned for the well-being of other people. While I do acknowledge that no one's motives are completely pure--certainly mine are not--I do know that DCP is concerned about others in his apologetics. Were I to reach out to him today and earnestly ask for help with a question about the Gospel, he would make time to talk to me. He would give his time to help me work things out. I can't count that as a completely selfish thing to do.

I wanted to circle back to this. The image that drumdude posted reminded me of the scene from The Empire Strikes Back where Vader is ordered to make contact with the Emperor. Vader kneels down on a holograph pad and says, "What is thy bidding my master?" and they have a conversation about Luke Skywalker's threat to the empire. At the conclusion of that brief chat, the Emperor asks Vader if Luke can be turned to the dark side, and Vader replies, "He will join us or die, Master."



So, thinking back to this idea of the Afore offering "help." Is this really done in the genuine spirit of generosity, without strings attached? Or is it a "join us or die" kind of mentality? I mean, if *you* the Reverend posed a question to him, would he really "make the time to talk"? I dunno. Possibly. I think it's a lot more likely that he'd brush you off and tell you that he was too busy traveling or dealing with other matters, and that he'd get back to you when he had time. (And then he never would.) But I think the "help" that you're referring to is the sort of Mopologetics-style "help" where he's been dispatched to deal with wavering members. I can't help but think of the incident he himself described where he spent 4 hours talking with someone but failed to disclose that he was there on official SCMC business, which had "recruited" him to try and salvage this wavering member. The thing is: I think that you can definitely read this as being generous on the one hand. I mean, four hours isn't nothing. He did indeed give up that time. And I'm sure he was sincere in hoping that the wavering guy could have been saved and brought back into the fold. If not, though? "He will join us or die, master." So perhaps "selfish" isn't quite the best descriptor.

But behind all this, I think, is very much that authoritarian culture of the Church: "He will join us or die." There is no room for cordial disagreement: the Church is absolutely correct and "perfect," and going against it makes you the enemy. "Only a Sith believes in absolutes," as Obi-Wan says. And the LDS Church is fundamentally an absolutist organization. So "generous" in a sense, I suppose, but only in service to the "Empire."

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Dan doesn’t think these are high brow artistic creations. I think we should try a little harder to be more sophisticated.

The caption should say, "What is thy bidding, my master?"

[Physics Guy]

A Limited Astronomy Theory, if you will.

Lol. Excellent.

+1

[Doctor Scratch]

“What is thy bidding, my master?”
“There has been a great disturbance in the Church.”
“I have felt it.”
“We have a new enemy: John Dehlin.”
“He’s just an apostate. Grant Palmer can no longer help him.”
“The Adversary is strong with him. He must not become a podcaster.”
“If he could be denied the use of the term ‘Mormon,’ it would be a great victory for us.”
“Yes! Yes. Can it be done?”
“He will relinquish the term, or be sued, my master.”

[drumdude]

[Doctor Scratch]

On another thread, there is currently a discussion underway about whether or not Ugo Perego has ever actually technically "lied" about Book of Mormon DNA. Once again, we can find a parallel from Star Wars. You may recall that, in Episode IV, Luke asks Obi-Wan what happened to his (i.e., Luke's) father, and Obi-Wan tells him:

A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father.

Now, is that *actually* what happened? Later, of course, Luke finds out the truth in one of the defining moments of the series at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. And in Return of the Jedi, he confronts Obi-Wan's Force-ghost to ask about the apparently deceptive story he was told, and Obi-Wan replies:

Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.

But they both seem to acknowledge here that at least *some* aspect of the truth was deliberately covered up or withheld.

So, actually, this differs from Mopologetics insofar as Mopologists would *never* give up any ground and admit that *any*thing was "covered up" or "withheld," and yet, it's hard to see how this hasn't happened on multiple levels.

[The Before]

Louis Midgley is still alive, drumdude.

[The Before]

On another thread, there is currently a discussion underway about whether or not Ugo Perego has ever actually technically "lied" about Book of Mormon DNA. Once again, we can find a parallel from Star Wars. You may recall that, in Episode IV, Luke asks Obi-Wan what happened to his (i.e., Luke's) father, and Obi-Wan tells him:

A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father.

Now, is that *actually* what happened? Later, of course, Luke finds out the truth in one of the defining moments of the series at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. And in Return of the Jedi, he confronts Obi-Wan's Force-ghost to ask about the apparently deceptive story he was told, and Obi-Wan replies:

Your father was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.

But they both seem to acknowledge here that at least *some* aspect of the truth was deliberately covered up or withheld.

So, actually, this differs from Mopologetics insofar as Mopologists would *never* give up any ground and admit that *any*thing was "covered up" or "withheld," and yet, it's hard to see how this hasn't happened on multiple levels.

DS,

I actually like the Obi-Wan analogy because it helps isolate what I’m asking for.

We know Obi-Wan knows that Vader is Luke’s father, and we later learn that his earlier wording was deliberately constructed around that knowledge. So even if “Vader murdered Anakin” can be defended as technically true “from a certain point of view,” we have good evidence that Obi-Wan intentionally withheld a material fact and caused Luke to believe something Obi-Wan knew wasn’t literally what had happened.

That’s deception, and it shows why I don’t require mind-reading or a statement to be literally false before deception can be established.

So what’s the Perego equivalent? If the evidence shows that Perego knew X, then deliberately told an LDS audience Y in order to lead them toward a conclusion he knew wasn’t supported by X, I’m perfectly comfortable calling that deceptive.

But the Obi-Wan analogy can’t supply that missing premise for us. Star Wars explicitly establishes Obi-Wan’s knowledge and his deliberate withholding. With Perego, that’s precisely the thing we’re trying to establish from the evidence.

And saying “Mopologists would never admit anything was covered up” doesn’t establish what Perego knew or intended in any particular example.