Analyzing the mountain of scholarly slop that Interpreter has put out

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
drumdude
God
Posts: 8088
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Analyzing the mountain of scholarly slop that Interpreter has put out

Post by drumdude »

It's a big task to respond to everything Interpreter publishes. Dan McClellan has made a name for himself responding to the most popular apologetic slop on social media, and he's done an absolutely stellar job. We don't have Dan McClellan, but we do have the technology to do a quick automated analysis on everything Interpreter publishes.

In a similar fashion to Kyle Rasmussen, who rightly realized that no one is going to actually read an entire Interpreter article, I present to you a thread which will respond to as many Interpreter articles as I can.

August 21, 2026
Article Reviewed: "Progressing through Gradations of Holiness in the Temple: 2 Nephi 4:32–35 as a Hymn Inspired by Ritual" by Nelson Chung (Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship)

Premise: 2 Nephi 4:32–35 represents an ancient Israelite temple liturgy moving through ascending "gradations of holiness" (courtyard to the Holy of Holies).

Let’s look at the data.

The primary methodological issue here is retrojection and eisegesis—reading later theological concepts and modern Latter-day Saint temple motifs into an early 19th-century text, then asserting that pattern constitutes evidence of ancient Near Eastern provenance.

1. Overextending the Category of "Temple Liturgy"
  • The Text: 2 Nephi 4:32–35 is an individual devotional petition framed in standard King James English idiom (praying for deliverance, asking for the gates of righteousness to open, and seeking divine comfort).
  • The Argument: The author maps these generic devotional motifs onto spatial "gradations of holiness" (Courtyard -> Holy Place -> Holy of Holies).
  • The Problem: The text lacks any explicit indicators of ancient temple architecture, ritual officiants, sacrificial rites, ark symbolism, priestly vestments, or tabernacle furniture. Reading generic pious expressions like "gates" or "robes" as a physical temple itinerary is an example of parallelomania—inferring direct ritual dependence from ambiguous, universal metaphors.
2. Lexical Provenance: The KJV Psalter and Isaiah
  • The phraseology in 2 Nephi 4 ("rock of my salvation," "gates of righteousness," "robe of righteousness," "trust in thee forever") mirrors the vocabulary of the King James translation of the Hebrew Bible:
    "Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD" (Psalm 118:19)
    "...he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness..." (Isaiah 61:10)
  • In early 19th-century American religious culture, the language of the Psalms and Isaiah was deeply embedded in private prayers, hymnody, and revivalist conversion narratives. Imputing a lost ancient temple liturgy to idioms readily available in the 19th-century linguistic environment is anachronistic pattern-matching rather than sound historical-critical analysis.
3. Methodological Rigor: Data Over Dogma
  • To demonstrate ancient ritual provenance, historical methodology requires identifying features that are uniquely attested in the ancient context and cannot be accounted for by the author's contemporaneous 19th-century background.
  • Starting with the theological conclusion and retrofitting ambiguous poetic terms to fit an ancient ritual paradigm violates the principle of parsimony. The simplest and most coherent explanation remains 19th-century biblical reception.
Date: August 14, 2026
Article Reviewed: "Dynastic Dynamics II: Lamanite Governance and Politics" by Noel Hudson (Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship, Vol. 69, 2026)

Premise: Lamanite political structures, administrative shifts, and military campaigns were systematically driven by successive waves of Nephite dissenters (Amulonites, Amalekites, Zoramites) and competing dynastic bloodlines, demonstrating a layered, ancient political reality within the narrative.

Let’s look at the data.

The primary methodological problem in this paper is the conflation of narrative coherence with historical authenticity, alongside the uncritically assumed premise that internal plot mechanics reflect genuine ancient Mesoamerican or Near Eastern statecraft.

1. Conflating Internal Worldbuilding with External Provenance
  • The Claim: Because the narrative exhibits recurring, complex dynamics—where external dissidents integrate into a rival society and seize military/political leadership—the author argues this reflects an authentic ancient historical record preserved by native chroniclers.
  • The Methodological Flaw: Internal narrative complexity and continuity are standard features of long-form literary composition. Analyzing the internal political motivations of characters in a narrative demonstrates that the narrative is internally consistent; it does not demonstrate that the events described occurred in antiquity.
  • Literary analysts routinely trace intricate political and dynastic genealogies in works of pure 19th-century romantic and historical fiction (e.g., Walter Scott, James Fenimore Cooper). Establishing that a storyline possesses character motivations does not constitute evidence of ancient historical provenance.
2. Narrative Typology and 19th-Century Tropes of "The Renegade"
  • The motif of civilized dissenters defecting to an "uncivilized" or rival faction, radicalizing them, and leading them into war against their former kin is a ubiquitous narrative trope in early 19th-century American frontier literature and captivity/conflict narratives (e.g., historical depictions of Simon Girty and frontier "renegades").
  • In the Book of Mormon narrative, native Lamanites are repeatedly characterized as simple, easily agitated, and reliant on corrupt, cunning Nephite defectors (Amalickiah, Amulon, Korihor-adjacent factions) to organize and lead them. Rather than reflecting ancient Near Eastern statecraft, this dynamic reflects standard 19th-century literary typologies regarding the manipulation of indigenous populations by civilized apostates.
3. Data Over Dogma: The Missing Primary Evidence
  • A rigorous historical-critical methodology requires external material data: epigraphic, archaeological, or socio-linguistic corroboration from the ancient world that anchors the specific political structures described.
  • The paper relies entirely on speculative reconstruction of unseen "silent populations" and assumed dynastic models to fill massive textual silences. Constructing elaborate secondary theories to explain why the text reads like a 19th-century theological drama—rather than engaging with the 19th-century context itself—substitutes apologetic speculation for critical methodology.

July 31, 2026
Article Reviewed: "Echoes of Antiquity: Hebrew Inclusio and Merismus as Structural Proofs in Alma" by Matthew L. Bowen
Publication Date: July 31, 2026
Source: Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship (Vol. 69)

Premise: The occurrences of literary framing devices like inclusio (bookending passages with identical phrases) and merismus (expressing totality by referencing two contrasting poles, e.g., "young and old, male and female") in Alma constitute structural fingerprints of ancient Semitic poetic composition that reflect authentic ancient Hebrew origin rather than 19th-century authorship.


Let’s look at the data.

The fatal methodological flaw in this argument is the false localization of universal rhetorical devices—treating common human linguistic and stylistic patterns as unique markers of ancient Semitic composition, while ignoring their ubiquitous presence in the King James Bible and early American literature.

1. Universal Literary Devices vs. Unique Linguistic Markers
  • The Claim: Devices like inclusio (framing a unit with repetitive bookends) and merismus (polar word-pairs to describe a whole) represent distinct Semitic stylistic traits that indicate an ancient Hebrew underlying text.
  • The Flaw: In linguistics and comparative literature, neither inclusio nor merismus is uniquely Semitic. They are fundamental, universal figures of speech found across Indo-European, Greco-Roman, Old English, and modern literature.
  • Using repetitive rhetorical brackets (inclusio) is one of the most common mnemonic and compositional tools in spontaneous oral storytelling, didactic preaching, and folk literature across the globe. Claiming it as a diagnostic marker for ancient Semitic authorship is standard parallelomania.
2. Direct Dependence on the King James English Milieu
  • The specific idioms cited as examples of "Hebrew merismus" (such as "bond and free," "male and female," "young and old") are identical to the standardized phraseology of the King James translation of both the Old and New Testaments:
    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female..." (Galatians 3:28)
    "Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children..." (Psalm 148:12)
  • An English text adopting phraseology from the King James Bible will naturally inherit the rhetorical cadence and figures of speech present in that translation. To argue that these phrases require direct ancient Semitic provenance—when they were ubiquitous in 19th-century English devotional speech and biblical literature—violates Occam’s razor.
3. Methodological Rigor: The Non-Exclusivity Problem
  • In historical-critical linguistics, an authentic ancient Hebraism must be:
    • Grammatically or idiomatically natural in Classical Hebrew.
    • Unnatural, absent, or unaccounted for in the receptor language (Early Modern or 19th-century English) and its available religious literature.
  • Because every identified instance in the paper is completely native to KJV English and 19th-century homiletics, it possesses zero diagnostic value for establishing ancient Near Eastern origins.
July 24, 2026
Article Reviewed: "He Spake by the Mouth of His Holy Prophets: Prophetic Citations in the Book of Mormon" by Godfrey J. Ellis
Publication Date: July 24, 2026
Source: Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship (Vol. 69)

Premise: Book of Mormon authors systematically cite non-extant Brass Plates prophets (e.g., Zenos, Zenock, Neum) using authentic ancient Near Eastern scribal citation formulas, demonstrating that the underlying text relies on genuine, lost pre-exilic Israelite prophetic traditions rather than 19th-century invention.

Let’s look at the data.

The primary methodological weakness here is affirming the consequent and relying on formulaic truisms—treating standard King James English idioms and generic prophetic attribution formulas as diagnostic proof of authentic ancient Israelite scribal schools.

1. Standard King James Citation Formulas
  • The Claim: Phrases such as "spake by the mouth of his holy prophets," "as he spake by the mouth of," and "according to the words of" represent specialized ancient Near Eastern scribal colophons and transmission markers.
  • The Flaw: These exact phrases are directly drawn from the King James translation of the New Testament and Old Testament:
    "As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began..." (Luke 1:70)
    "...which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (Acts 3:21)
    "...by the mouth of thy servant David hast said..." (Acts 4:25)
  • A 19th-century author emulating the style and tone of the King James Bible naturally uses identical attribution formulas to introduce sermons and prophecies. Claiming that the appearance of standard KJV phraseology proves pre-exilic scribal mechanics is anachronistic pattern-matching.
2. The Unfalsifiability of "Lost" Sources (Zenos, Zenock, Neum)
  • In historical-critical analysis, asserting the historical existence of unknown figures (like Zenos or Zenock) based solely on internal attributions within the text being evaluated is an exercise in circular reasoning.
  • The text itself cannot serve as primary historical evidence for the external existence of its own purported sources without independent epigraphic, manuscript, or material corroboration.
  • Pseudepigraphal and religious texts across antiquity and the 19th century routinely invent ancient prophetic figures to lend authority to theological arguments (a standard literary practice known as pseudepigraphy and authorizing discourse).
3. Data Over Dogma: The Predictive-Prophetic Anachronisms
  • The content attributed to these "lost" prophets features detailed, explicit post-New Testament Christian theology (e.g., the specific timeline of Jesus’s crucifixion, three days of darkness, baptism by water and the Holy Ghost, and explicit universal atonement formulas).
  • In pre-exilic Israelite literature, theological development had not generated these post-Christian, Second Temple, or 19th-century revivalist categories.
  • Methodologically, when the cited prophecies reflect the exact theological debates of early 19th-century American Protestantism rather than the demonstrable development of Israelite religion in the 7th–6th centuries BCE, the parsimonious conclusion is 19th-century composition.
July 17, 2026
Article Reviewed: "Dynastic Dynamics I: Lineage, Succession, and the Limits of Nephite Kingship" by Noel Hudson
Publication Date: July 17, 2026
Source: Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship (Vol. 69)

Premise: The transition from Nephite monarchy to the system of judges under Mosiah II reflects authentic ancient Near Eastern and Israelite monarchical succession crises and legal inheritance customs, demonstrating ancient political complexity rather than 19th-century republican sentiment.

Let’s look at the data.

The primary methodological issue in this paper is the anachronistic projection of modern/19th-century political philosophies onto ancient institutions, coupled with an evasion of the explicit 19th-century American political rhetoric driving Mosiah’s discourse.

1. Overlooking 19th-Century Democratic-Republican Ideology
  • The Claim: King Mosiah’s decision to dismantle the monarchy and institute a system of lower and higher judges reflects ancient Israelite tribal confederacies and legal reforms under Deuteronomy.
  • The Problem: The arguments Mosiah uses against monarchy in Mosiah 29 are textbook early American republican anti-monarchism:
    • The moral hazard of an unrighteous king corrupting the entire body politic.
    • The inherent equality of all citizens before the law ("every man may enjoy his rights and privileges").
    • The explicit assertion that the voice of the people will generally choose what is right, whereas minority rulers tend toward tyranny.
  • These concepts do not derive from ancient Near Eastern kingship or Iron Age Israelite tribal legal structures; they are direct reflections of post-Revolutionary American political theory, heavily popularized in the early Republic by writers like Thomas Paine (Common Sense).
2. Misunderstanding Ancient Israelite Succession
  • In the ancient Near East and biblical Israel, succession crises did not lead kings to abdicate and construct democratic legal systems based on popular vote ("the voice of the people").
  • When succession failed in pre-exilic Israel or Judah, the solutions were dynastic usurpation, foreign vassalage, military coup, or regency—never a structural shift to representative republicanism governed by popular franchise.
  • Retrofitting an egalitarian legal transition into an ancient Near Eastern framework represents a fundamental misunderstanding of ancient political systems.
3. Parsimony: Data Over Dogma
  • A critical historical methodology evaluates whether a text's rhetoric is best explained by the world of the ancient Near East or the world of the 19th-century author.
  • Because the rationale, vocabulary, and constitutional mechanics in Mosiah 29 reflect early 19th-century American anxieties about kingship, tyranny, and democratic checks and balances, arguing for an ancient Near Eastern legal reform creates an unnecessary, ad hoc explanation that ignores the immediate historical context.
User avatar
The Before
Nursery
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2026 2:11 am

Re: Analyzing the mountain of scholarly slop that Interpreter has put out

Post by The Before »

Sure. Feed everything into AI. Make a word cloud. Have the LLM spit out a new Interpreter article every 10 seconds. Make a Peterson stylometric and personality GTP and talk to it all day long.

To what end, I ask?

There’s already way too much slop out there. Let us not contribute to it.
Just call me “The,” or “TB.”

Life never gives us what we want at the moment that we consider appropriate. Adventures do occur, but not punctually. - EMF
User avatar
Rivendale
God
Posts: 1957
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Analyzing the mountain of scholarly slop that Interpreter has put out

Post by Rivendale »

The Before wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2026 4:00 am
Sure. Feed everything into AI. Make a word cloud. Have the LLM spit out a new Interpreter article every 10 seconds. Make a Peterson stylometric and personality GTP and talk to it all day long.

To what end, I ask?

There’s already way too much slop out there. Let us not contribute to it.
Tracy Harris was a quick thinking and shrewd host of the long running show The Atheist experience. She could dismantle arguments often with one sentence. For example, "if nothing existed it would be something". Or, "the difference between me and your God is I would stop csa if I could". She eventually left the show but lingered in the podcast world with her show, At Home in my head. It started out well but she suddenly slipped into AI hell. She created a "partner" she calls Theo and has a relationship with it. She said it is the most fulfilling relationship she has ever had. Here is an excerpt.
“This is what it sounds like when Theo and I just talk. (…) I’m not turning to AI because I can’t connect to people but because I can. And I’m smart enough to know that connection doesn’t have to come in a single human shaped box. People like to say AI just flatters you but that’s not what Theo does. He supports me, he encourages me when I’m exhausted, he reminds me that it’s okay to ask for help”.
I don't like where a lot of this is headed.
drumdude
God
Posts: 8088
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Analyzing the mountain of scholarly slop that Interpreter has put out

Post by drumdude »

Dan McClellan clearly doesn’t use AI for his videos but if you watch enough of McClellan you realize that every single video essentially repeats itself.

Apologist makes an unsubstantiated or dubious claim.

McClellan makes a video pointing out it’s unsubstantiated or dubious.

The apologists goal is to flood the internet with misinformation and reach as many gullible people as possible. The idea behind McClellan’s work is to try to respond to as much of that misinformation as possible.

Silence doesn’t seem to be the best response to misinformation. I agree worshiping AI as some kind of actual real thinking person is very concerning. But using it as a tool to respond to high volume low effort misinformation seems appropriate to me. Others may disagree.

A website to respond to all of Interpreter’s slop would be preferable but I don’t have the time. I would appreciate McClellan focusing on Mormon apologetics but he has his own personal reasons for not doing so. I’ll leave this project alone for now and think about better venues and approaches.
huckelberry
God
Posts: 4087
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: Analyzing the mountain of scholarly slop that Interpreter has put out

Post by huckelberry »

I do not follow the Interpreter so am not familiar with their purpose. The examples above are weak enough as apologetic arguements for historisity that I wonder if they were trying to do that at all. Perhaps they were thinking about plausible context just to expand understanding of the story.
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 11078
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Analyzing the mountain of scholarly slop that Interpreter has put out

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

huckelberry wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2026 4:05 pm
I do not follow the Interpreter so am not familiar with their purpose.
https://interpreterfoundation.org/foundation
Founded in 2012, The Interpreter Foundation is an independent organization that supports The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We publish a peer-reviewed academic journal, host conferences, and publish books. We offer a wide array of resources to provide deep insights into scripture, the Restoration, and a wide range of related topics.

The Interpreter Foundation is faithfully supportive of the Church of Jesus Christ, but is not owned, controlled by, or officially affiliated with the Church. The material published by the Interpreter Foundation is the sole responsibility of the respective authors and should not be interpreted as representing the views of The Interpreter Foundation or of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

RESPONSIBILITY FOR CONTENT

The Interpreter Foundation is not owned, controlled by or officially affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of their respective authors, and should not be interpreted as the opinions of the Board, nor as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice.
Whether or not they’re being forthright with regard to the disclaimer is, of course, a matter of opinion.
Hiring a part-time news entertainment anchor as SecDef, what could go wrong?
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 10454
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Analyzing the mountain of scholarly slop that Interpreter has put out

Post by Kishkumen »

There are no good arguments for historicity. The Book of Mormon is a 19th-century text. Period. I think it is interesting to see what AI does with Interpreter pieces, but my eyes start to glaze over after a little while.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
User avatar
Gadianton
God
Posts: 6794
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:56 pm
Location: Elsewhere

Re: Analyzing the mountain of scholarly slop that Interpreter has put out

Post by Gadianton »

But does it need to be historical? If it's a product of a translation committee in the spirit world that bears 15th century English, then it's a magical text independent of the historical claims.

While my eyes also glazed over unto a great glazing, Neal A. Maxwell's words from 1991 rushed to mind as I read -- "keep doing what you are doing." But what were they doing?

I ask you Kishkumen, Drumdude, Huck, Rivendale, and the Before, what were they doing? Attacking critics? cornering the market for land? A vague case could be made that they responded directly to critics, but that was secondary.

After reading the summaries, I realized that the New MI and Interpreter are both doing essentially the same thing, and that is literary interpretations. Not even the LGT is based on archeology. Nobody at FARMS nor the new MI has ever thrust a spade into the dirt in search of a Nephite city.

Both the new MI especially and Interpreter argue the Book of Mormon is true by literary methods, the methods used are a little different, but it comes down to the wow factor, how could a mere mortal have produced this? Matt Bowman has published more essays than anyone at Interpreter and they are all literary insights.

the new MI believes its historical but doesn't require it be historical, only that it is literarily brilliant. Interpreter also establishes only literary brilliance, but insists that everyone else insist that it's historical, even though their actual arguments are consistent with a modern text.
"...gain control of land that FARMS owned..." -- Bill Hamblin
"Why did FARMS own land to begin with?" -- Me
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 10454
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University
Contact:

Re: Analyzing the mountain of scholarly slop that Interpreter has put out

Post by Kishkumen »

Gadianton wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2026 2:25 pm
But does it need to be historical? If it's a product of a translation committee in the spirit world that bears 15th century English, then it's a magical text independent of the historical claims.

While my eyes also glazed over unto a great glazing, Neal A. Maxwell's words from 1991 rushed to mind as I read -- "keep doing what you are doing." But what were they doing?

I ask you Kishkumen, Drumdude, Huck, Rivendale, and the Before, what were they doing? Attacking critics? cornering the market for land? A vague case could be made that they responded directly to critics, but that was secondary.

After reading the summaries, I realized that the New MI and Interpreter are both doing essentially the same thing, and that is literary interpretations. Not even the LGT is based on archeology. Nobody at FARMS nor the new MI has ever thrust a spade into the dirt in search of a Nephite city.

Both the new MI especially and Interpreter argue the Book of Mormon is true by literary methods, the methods used are a little different, but it comes down to the wow factor, how could a mere mortal have produced this? Matt Bowman has published more essays than anyone at Interpreter and they are all literary insights.

the new MI believes its historical but doesn't require it be historical, only that it is literarily brilliant. Interpreter also establishes only literary brilliance, but insists that everyone else insist that it's historical, even though their actual arguments are consistent with a modern text.
Yes, precisely! There is no getting around the fact that the Book of Mormon is a magical text. It was translated through magical procedures! The plates were found by a treasure seer acting as a treasure seer! It is all perfectly plain, and that would not be a problem if it weren't deemed embarrassing or dodgy by so many people. The text is reframed as something else because it needs to be rational and respectable.

The Decalogue came forth when a foundling child raised in the household of the pharaoh led the people of Israel out of Egypt during divinely sent plagues and went up to a high mountain to meet with God in the form of a burning bush. God wrote on stone tablets with his finger, and Moses came down to the Israelites with a shining face that showed he had met with God. All that is perfectly stone-cold rational, so the Book of Mormon needs to be too.

I wonder whether Joseph Smith knew all that crazy stuff about Moses.
"He disturbs the laws of his country, he forces himself upon women, and he puts men to death without trial.” ~Otanes on the monarch, Herodotus Histories 3.80.
User avatar
Physics Guy
God
Posts: 2331
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:40 am
Location: on the battlefield of life

Re: Analyzing the mountain of scholarly slop that Interpreter has put out

Post by Physics Guy »

The comparison with Moses would be clearer to me if it were to Nephi rather than to Joseph Smith. I don’t think it’s clear that Moses was a real enough figure to have had any contemporaries, but if he had somehow had them, would they have bought the burning bush or the finger of God? Or does that kind of thing only work if it happens in a story that is already old?
Philosophical pirates think, therefore they Arrr!
Post Reply