Fairmormon's T. I. T. S.

[Philo Sofee]

That was a pretty good little write up piece......I enjoyed reading that.

[dastardly stem]

Nice piece on the events. Fair is being extremely stupid. The CES Letter, they keep repeating, is so bad, its pathetic and deceptive and not worth taking seriously. But then say what we've done hasn't been working. We need an approach that reaches these kids. And so in response they do little more then attempt to deceive people about what the CES Letter is and deceive concerning the issues that are driving people away. They can't be serious that they think the CES letter is lying about the main issues. The only thing they feel is clearly the lie in the CES Letter is something about how the questions and issues presented weren't really his questions and issues. They were found as he looked into it...or something. Which is nothing more than a criticism of convenience since they can't possibly know Runnell's intentions.

But things like Joseph marrying tons of women and girls is a real issue. DNA and anachronisms in the Book of Mormon constitute real issues. The Book of Abraham is itself full of issues. This Letter is not driving people away by accident.

Sorry FairMormon you are being absolutely idiotic on this. Then again what is an organization intent on defending the LDS church supposed to do? Maybe they are essentially calling it quits?

[mentalgymnast]

But things like Joseph marrying tons of women and girls is a real issue. DNA and anachronisms in the Book of Mormon constitute real issues. The Book of Abraham is itself full of issues. This Letter is not driving people away by accident.

They are issues that deserve much more time and research than can be experienced through watching a short video here and there. The Twitter generation likes to receive information in short sound bites and are often unwilling to invest the time to dig deep. Too many technology/social media distractions. The folks producing these videos need to footnote them and point the viewers towards sources that can provide meatier material to study. But alas, even then I fear that these distractions I’ve mentioned, and others, pull many young people away before they’ve been able to fully grasp the iron rod.

Regards,
MG

[Dr Exiled]

There is a reason Dr. Peterson and his cohorts won't mention the name of this board. They don't want to bring attention to the critics, because the critics have a point that cannot be refuted except with ad hominems or misdirection, etc. Doing these videos might just bring unwanted attention to the CES Letter like some said in the above tribune article and cause some youth to become familiar with the issues and find the added justification to leave. They are probably leaving because church is boring and its stance on popular issues seems old and stodgy. Their parents probably then use the silly "just leaving because of wanting to sin" claim. Finding and using the CES Letter Kwaku pointed them to will now give rock-solid justification for leaving.

In the end, the church cannot sustain its claims plain and simple and it is too authoritarian in the age of the internet. Nelson's poor, lying comments about tithing somehow lifting people up and out of poverty get highlighted immediately. The silly November 2015 policy and about face get exposed. And church is boring. Going from 3hrs to 2hrs may help cure the boredom, but the Q15 still want 24/7 dedication to them and today's youth don't want to follow spiritual dictators. Ridicule and gaslighting won't change this in the long run and eventually people leave groups that don't agree with their values.

[IHAQ]

Nice piece on the events. Fair is being extremely stupid. The CES Letter, they keep repeating, is so bad, its pathetic and deceptive and not worth taking seriously.

That’s a good summation of the what Fairmormon is saying. My question, if it’s not worth taking seriously why are they taking it so seriously? I wonder...

[Philo Sofee]

Nice piece on the events. Fair is being extremely stupid. The CES Letter, they keep repeating, is so bad, its pathetic and deceptive and not worth taking seriously. But then say what we've done hasn't been working. We need an approach that reaches these kids. And so in response they do little more then attempt to deceive people about what the CES Letter is and deceive concerning the issues that are driving people away. They can't be serious that they think the CES letter is lying about the main issues. The only thing they feel is clearly the lie in the CES Letter is something about how the questions and issues presented weren't really his questions and issues. They were found as he looked into it...or something. Which is nothing more than a criticism of convenience since they can't possibly know Runnell's intentions.

But things like Joseph marrying tons of women and girls is a real issue. DNA and anachronisms in the Book of Mormon constitute real issues. The Book of Abraham is itself full of issues. This Letter is not driving people away by accident.

Sorry FairMormon you are being absolutely idiotic on this. Then again what is an organization intent on defending the LDS church supposed to do? Maybe they are essentially calling it quits?

Well, you know what they say don't you? Every time you kick criticisms of Mormonism, you kick them uphill. You can leave criticisms of Mormonism, but you can't leave them alone...

[mentalgymnast]

...youth to become familiar with the issues and find the added justification to leave. They are probably leaving because church is boring and its stance on popular issues seems old and stodgy. Their parents probably then use the silly "just leaving because of wanting to sin" claim. Finding and using the CES Letter Kwaku pointed them to will now give rock-solid justification for leaving...church is boring. Going from 3hrs to 2hrs may help cure the boredom..

Back to what I was saying, this world that we live in seems to have a constant stream of distractions in one form or another. Constant stimulation. When we find ourselves disconnected from that we are “bored”. Sometimes when our grandchildren are visiting and there are some quiet moments where the TV is off and there isn’t much going on they go for a minute or two and then come up with the comment, “I’m bored!” Short attention spans...unless it’s technology...and an inability to sit and just read or be quiet and think. It seems to be more of a lost art nowadays.

So then you have folks complaining that church is boring. No surprise. Church is a place of reverence and quiet meditation. It’s a place of non-technology driven discussions and lessons. And yes, there is a certain sense of predictability and sameness. But what would you really expect in an environment where people are edifying one another in the gospel? One man’s boredom is another man’s edification and enrichment.

Young people, simply put, are easily bored. They have a difficult time entertaining themselves or being alone with their own thoughts. That’s what we’re dealing with. No real easy solutions other than trying to train youth to be less dependent on exterior influences and more comfortable with being inside their own head or putting their head in front of a worthwhile book rather than some stupid video game or screen device.

Regards,
MG

[mentalgymnast]

Well, you know what they say don't you? Every time you kick criticisms of Mormonism, you kick them uphill. You can leave criticisms of Mormonism, but you can't leave them alone...

I’ve mentioned before over on the old board that I believe critics and their criticisms are necessary. Life is a series of opportunities to choose one thing over or in place of another. I believe that religious belief is no exception. And to have real choice there needs to be enough opposition so that a REAL choice is made. Belief in and then following God’s commandments should be a choice one makes willingly and with a real desire to follow Christ. And this requires great sacrifice. If the choice is easy, the commitment level is going to be less than if one has to really work for their testimony and faith consistently over a period of time.

Critics and their criticisms provide the fodder for self reflection and further study, sacrifice, and hard work to gain and keep a testimony.

We’re seeing that many youth don’t have the drive and stamina to work out their own salvation and learn and grow through struggle and mighty prayer. They want everything handed to them on a silver platter.

Right now.

But that’s not how life works.

Regards,
MG

[Moksha]

Most Latter-day Saints “don’t base their religious decisions on DNA evidence or 19th-century history,” he says. “Millennials, like everybody else, go where they feel wanted and accepted.”

If the church can provide such a place, Austin says, “then most people will be charitable in assessing the problem areas of our history.”

If it can’t, he says, it doesn’t really matter what else it does.

This is a very profound statement. It sort of cuts to the heart of the problem the Church is experiencing. Who is this Michael Austin from the University of Evansville?

[Dr Exiled]

...youth to become familiar with the issues and find the added justification to leave. They are probably leaving because church is boring and its stance on popular issues seems old and stodgy. Their parents probably then use the silly "just leaving because of wanting to sin" claim. Finding and using the CES Letter Kwaku pointed them to will now give rock-solid justification for leaving...church is boring. Going from 3hrs to 2hrs may help cure the boredom..

Back to what I was saying, this world that we live in seems to have a constant stream of distractions in one form or another. Constant stimulation. When we find ourselves disconnected from that we are “bored”. Sometimes when our grandchildren are visiting and there are some quiet moments where the TV is off and there isn’t much going on they go for a minute or two and then come up with the comment, “I’m bored!” Short attention spans...unless it’s technology...and an inability to sit and just read or be quiet and think. It seems to be more of a lost art nowadays.

So then you have folks complaining that church is boring. No surprise. Church is a place of reverence and quiet meditation. It’s a place of non-technology driven discussions and lessons. And yes, there is a certain sense of predictability and sameness. But what would you really expect in an environment where people are edifying one another in the gospel? One man’s boredom is another man’s edification and enrichment.

Young people, simply put, are easily bored. They have a difficult time entertaining themselves or being alone with their own thoughts. That’s what we’re dealing with. No real easy solutions other than trying to train youth to be less dependent on exterior influences and more comfortable with being inside their own head or putting their head in front of a worthwhile book rather than some stupid video game or screen device.

Regards,
MG

Perhaps find a way to make church more interesting? Maybe that will keep the youth?

How about less history worship? My ancestors suffered with the mistaken Martin Handcart company, but that was so long ago and I really couldn't care less about it today. It was tough for them and Brigham Young made a huge mistake starting the program and Franklin Richards compounded the error. But so what. That was eons ago. Who cares today? I am sure the youth are bored stiff at hearing whitewashed tales about people from the 1800's. Clearly there are a host of holes that allow critics to disparage. De-emphasizing history would solve the problem with critics claiming constant whitewash and teens and adults alike wouldn't have to suffer listening to the monotony.

How about discussing the issues of the day every once and a while? Have classes on how to raise kids or how to best economize or finding jobs? Have classes on self-esteme for the youth? Perhaps that would stem the tide of teenage suicide? Get someone who can write clever lessons about real-world situations where teens can relate and learn something and have a voice. Get'em talking and the boredom leaves.