Top 10 Falsifiable FAIRMORMON Claims

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Philo Sofee
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Re: Top 10 Falsifiable FAIRMORMON Claims

Post by Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:46 pm
Rick Grunder wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:49 pm
Mormon scholar Mike Reed explored this same approach ten years ago. He listed 47 examples of pre-Book of Mormon male Almas on his blog, "Cultural Mormon Cafeteria." Here is a link to his interesting comments posted January 23, 2010:

https://culturalmormoncafeteria.blogspo ... +name+male

Some of those names deserve to be pasted here in this thread. Surely, young Joseph had heard of the name ALMA as being a man's name -- boys by the name of Alma, contemporary to Joseph's time and region. I contend that the name was definitely a candidate for religious heroes in Smith's novel, the Book of Mormon. Wouldn't you agree, DCP, right?

My question to the apologists is:

"How could Joseph have NOT known?"

:twisted:


Alma SMITH - Ancestral FileGender: M Birth; Married to Sarah Gates, 8 Jan 1789. Presbyterian Chk, Ballston Center, Saratoga, N Y
Alma Smith - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 30 NOV 1800 Shoreham, Addison, Vermont
Alma [chase] - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: About 1793 Stephenstown, , Sullivan, New York
Alma RICHARDS - Ancestral FileGender: M Birth/Christening: Sep 1780 Of, Hartford, Hartford, Conn.
ALMA CAPRON - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 18 JAN 1793 East Greenwich, Kent, Rhode Island
Alma [cowdery] - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 12 AUG 1805 Hartland, Hartford, Connecticut
Alma Spalding - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 1790 Sheffield, Massachusetts
Alma Spalding - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 20 FEB 1796 , Connecticut
Alma Spalding - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 27 FEB 1796 New Marlboro, Berkshire, Massachusetts
Alma Otis Johnson - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Other: About 1787 Of, Leyden Twp, Lewis, New York
Alma Johnson - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: About 1792 Of Middletown, Connecticut
Alma Scott - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 25 APR 1792, Northampton, North Carolina
ALMA SCOTT - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 09 AUG 1786 Cornwall, Addison, Vermont
Alma White - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 18 JUL 1797 Upper, Middletown, Middlesex, Connecticut
Alma Clark - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 1795 Lee, Berkshire, Massachusetts
Alma Clark - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 03 OCT 1797 Lebanon, New London, Connecticut
Alma STARK - 1880 United States Census / OhioFatherL Gender: Male Birth: [1798] PA
ALMA LYON - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 07 JUL 1794 Of, Weston, Fairfield, Connecticut
ALMA CROSS - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 10 JAN 1790 Newton, Middlesex, Massachusetts
Alma Taylor - Pedigree Resource FileGender: M Birth/Christening: 13 May 1769 York, SC
Alma Ticknor Pease - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 28 JUL 1802 Of, Canaan, Columbia, New York
Alma Coe Lyman - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 26 MAR 1786 Of, Middlefield, Middlesex, Connecticut
Alma Browne - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: About 1796 Of, Greene, New York
Alma - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 08 SEP 1780 Fitzwilliam, Cheshire, New Hampshire
Alma [thompson] - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 27 MAY 1802 Of, Charlton, Worcester, Massachusetts
Oh Shulem.....you blew it man! Apologists can now use your list and say "See? All the critics can come up with is a little over a mere only dozen male Alma's in his time and place. The liklihood of one of these very precious few having influenced Joseph is vastly less than if the critics had found a few hundred, therefor, Alma is an ancient name, and the Prophet was correct to have it."
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Shulem
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Re: Top 10 Falsifiable FAIRMORMON Claims

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:55 pm
Oh Shulem.....you blew it man! Apologists can now use your list and say "See? All the critics can come up with is a little over a mere only dozen male Alma's in his time and place. The liklihood of one of these very precious few having influenced Joseph is vastly less than if the critics had found a few hundred, therefor, Alma is an ancient name, and the Prophet was correct to have it."

But the list isn't comprehensive. I have an ace up my sleeve ready to play at a moments notice.

Recall Tom's earlier post:
Tom wrote:Alma Smith
Gender: M
Birth: 1799, Danby, Rutland, Vermont
I commented that this Alma was born 5 years before Joseph Smith Jr., in the town of Rutland Vermont which is about 30 or so miles southwest of Sharon Vermont, as the crow flies.

There is a damn good chance the Smith's in Sharon knew the Smith's in Rutland. I'll bet Joseph Smith Jr., and Alma Smith were friends and might have even played boy-games behind the barn!

:twisted:

Wouldn't you say?

:lol:
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Shulem
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Re: Top 10 Falsifiable FAIRMORMON Claims

Post by Shulem »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:20 am
Every Wednesday I intend to address a FAIRMORMON claim that is easily falsifiable by anyone (even the old widow in Parowan).
Tomorrow is Wednesday. Oh boy!

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consiglieri
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Re: Top 10 Falsifiable FAIRMORMON Claims

Post by consiglieri »

I mentioned DCP's disingenuousness regarding his use of the name Alma as a Book of Mormon evidence more than once on the Radio Free Mormon podcast.

That's because I was stunned a number of years ago to find out not only that Alma was a man's name in Joseph Smith's time and place, but that DCP knew it and nevertheless continued to make the argument while intentionally not mentioning it.

I mean, DCP told me! He opined it made no difference to the strength of the argument. I was floored. This was the moment DCP fell from grace in my eyes.

After mentioning it on RFM, Bill Reel picked up the banner and publicly shamed DCP on Bill's Facebook page on 7-30-19.

DCP finally caved on the issue the next day in his 7-31-19 SeN post.

I remember laughing about it with Bill at Sunstone last year when this soap opera was unfolding.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Top 10 Falsifiable FAIRMORMON Claims

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It is very odd to me that he would not concede that this is a problem. The evidence seems only allowed to work in favor of the ancient Book of Mormon in the eyes of some. Finding out there were Almas walking around Joseph Smith only moves the needle from 90% in favor of the ancient Book of Mormon to 60% in favor.

I rather think it moves it from 5% to 0%.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
consiglieri
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Re: Top 10 Falsifiable FAIRMORMON Claims

Post by consiglieri »

The other funny thing is how DCP et al have historically introduced this proof by remarking about the howls of derision heard from the critics over this obvious gaffe.

Alma a man's name? Preposterous!

But diligent search has failed to turn up any examples of such howls of derision. That is why DCP punts to personal exchanges with James White to give a for instance.

In other words, it appears DCP has manufactured derisive comments from the critics in order to enhance the power of this Book of Mormon proof.

Circles within circles.

Deception upon deception.

Or should I say DeCePtion?
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Shulem
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Re: Top 10 Falsifiable FAIRMORMON Claims

Post by Shulem »

consiglieri wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:01 am
In other words, it appears DCP has manufactured derisive comments from the critics in order to enhance the power of this Book of Mormon proof.

Derisive comments? Oh boy!

:twisted:

DID JOSEPH SMITH HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH AN ALMA IN SHARON VERMONT OR PALMYRA NEW YORK?

What evidence is there, hidden away or yet undetected that might suggest Joseph got it on with boys at an early age?

:o

Follow the evidence. Follow the trail. Follow Joseph's dirty footprints behind barns.

Did Joseph have sex with Alma?

[ ] YES
[ ] NO
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Shulem
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Re: Top 10 Falsifiable FAIRMORMON Claims

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:Did Joseph have sex with Alma?

[X] YES
[ ] NO
Why does that not surprise me?

Shulem wrote:Did Joseph have sex with Alma?

[ ] YES
[X] NO
That's your opinion.
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Shulem
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Re: Top 10 Falsifiable FAIRMORMON Claims

Post by Shulem »

Mike Reed wrote: Alma Matter--Does the Name Verify or Disprove the Book of Mormon's Authenticity?

Alma Smith - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 30 NOV 1800 Shoreham, Addison, Vermont

Alma Scott - International Genealogical Index / NAGender: Male Birth: 09 AUG 1786 Cornwall, Addison, Vermont

Both Almas were born in towns not far from Sharon Vermont (50 miles away) when Joseph Smith Jr., was born in 1805 -- wherein Alma Smith was age 5 and Alma Scott would have been 19.

What are the chances that young Joseph Smith Jr., and his family, met one of these Almas during the 12 years Joseph lived in Vermont?

Let's turn to the Lucy Mack Smith, History for clues:
Lucy Mack Smith wrote:....took our 3 oldest children ane went to Sharon and hired a farm of my father which My husband cultivated in the summer season and in the winter he taught school This course we pursued for a few years gaining gradually untill we found ourselvese in quite comfortable circumstances.

Here it was that My Son Joseph was born one who will act a More conspicuous part in this work than any other individual From this place we went a short distance to Royalton where Wiliam was born
Sharon is 9 miles downstream of the White River from Royalton. The Smith's got around and changed locations when young Joseph was age 6 and went down river some 20 miles to Lebanon.
Lucy Mack Smith wrote:Thence To <​to​> Lebanon <​1811​> here we settled ourselves down and began to congratulate ourselves upon our prosperity and also to renew our exertions to obtain a greater abundance of this worlds Goods we looked around us
The Smiths were members of society and were quite interested in ensuring that their children "at home and abroad" maintained a descent standard among their neighbors:
Lucy Mack Smith wrote:....there is nothing which we have not a sufficiency of to make us per and our children perfectly comfortable both for food and raiment as well as that which <​is​> necessary to a respectable appearance in society <​both​> at home and abroad taking this view of the subject we thought it time to begin to provide for the future wants of our family and ourselves
The Smiths were quite interested in maintaining regular society and school as much as they could to include an academy in Hanover, several miles away.
Lucy Mack Smith wrote:we made every arrangement to suply that deficency our second son <​Hyrum [Smith]​> we sent to <​established in​> the accademy in Hanover the remmainder who were old enough attended a school near by
After a few years of hard times the Smith family moved across the river into Norrige to try their luck on a farm before finally leaving for Palmyra New York:
Lucy Mack Smith wrote:My Husband now determined to change his residence accordingly we moved to Norrige
The point is, the Smith's got around and knew a lot of people in Vermont. The question remains whether they knew either of the two Almas listed above? There is a good chance they did.

It is there that young and impressionable Joseph may have found a name for his future book.
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Shulem
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Re: Top 10 Falsifiable FAIRMORMON Claims

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:41 pm
Although Smith was born in Sharon Vermont in 1805 the Smith family moved to Palmyra in 1817 and purchased a 100 acre farm. Joseph was 12 years old and the Smith family would have known a lot of people after settling in their new locality, Palmyra.

There are six Almas listed above, all born in Palmyra. Assuming the 3 boys were still living in Palmyra when the Smith family arrived, the ages of the boys would have been: 10, 11, 1.

Now, what are the odds that young Joseph (age 12) would have heard or met any of those boys or the ones born later?

So, how well did the Smiths know their neighbors after arriving in Palmyra? Apparently very well and they prospered too.
Lucy Mack Smith wrote:So that in 2 years from the time we entered Palmyra strangers destitute of friends or home or employment. We were able to settle ourselves upon our own land a a snug comfortable though humble habitatino built and neatly furnished by our own industry And if we might judege by any external manifestation we had every reason to believe that we had many Good and affectionate friends for never have I seen more kindness or attention shown to any person or family than we received from those around us
Do you suppose that any of those many good and affectionate friends might have had the name "Alma"? Oh my, the chances are quite high! Joseph found a new boyfriend, named "Alma". Indeed, young Joseph Smith Jr., playing with a boy named Alma (with his pants down) behind the barn while his mother sips tea with the ladies:
Lucy Mack Smith wrote:Again we began to rejoice in our prosperity and our hearts glowed with gratitude to God for the manifestations of his favor that surrounded us Permit me here to relate a little circumstance by way of illustration A friend of mine having invited several of her associates to take tea with her one afternoon sent an urgeant request for me also to call on her with the rest <​the ladys invited were some wealthy merchants Wives and the minister’s lady​> we spent the time quite pleasantly each seeming to enjoy those reciprocal feelings which renders the society of our friends
Folks, it's right there! Joseph's mother was making friends with everyone, so it seems, and you can bet that Alma was among them, playing with her son Joseph, perhaps naked, behind the barn.
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