A big hello

[Ed1]

I have been a lurker on the old site for a very long time, and I have appeared now and again under a few usernames to comment.
This is my latest username, and it is not my name, but it is the name you will know me by.
I am a believing Latter-day Saint, and have been on the Internet since '96. Before that I was online on Prodigy, etc., and before that BBS's with various forums discussing stuff with ExMos. So I have been "online" since the mid 80's. I have followed the various exMormon forums on the Internet, Mormon Stories since its inception, FAIR since its inception, Interpreter since its inception, many bloggernaccle sites since they were established.

So, I have been "around."

Philo Sofee/Kerry, I will chastise you as I know you personally. You are a pure Jerk since your change of beliefs, and you owe your friends and associates respect and a huge apology, who do the best they can in their circumstances, and with the constraints of their beliefs on them, with the exception of how they aren't all that honest about evidence the way Hauglid is. They are bound by their beliefs that keeps them from being truly open minded and truly unbiased. You don't need to be the way you are about your new beliefs. You don't need to mock your friends because of your new beliefs to get browny points on this forum and build yourself up. It doesn't just come with the territory, my dear friend. You have to choose to be an ass, and you have. And you ought to dignify your self because of your accomplishments both before and after your change of beliefs. I don't care or give a d**n if you are "angry." You are "angry" so-called because you want to make yourself out to be accepted here and that you are trying to get the praise of men. I would be ware of the pride that you have fallen into, even if you never change your beliefs back. Even if you no longer seek exaltation in the LDS heaven, you ought to carry a more exalted and dignified attitude because of who you are. Your entry into the great and spacious building has cankered you. You need to be a better human.

Shulem/Paul, stop being an ass, and have a bit more respect for the beliefs of other people that you disagree with. Stop being an ass about the Temple rituals and have a little respect. I'm happy that you have found so much out about the Book of Abraham. Good for you. Now act like an adult, and publish something about your findings in a dignified way.

You people get on here and find fault. Go ahead and expose what you disagree with if you wish, but in a dignified matter, as there is plenty of imperfection to find, as with any human-run organization. It isn't surprising that there is human faults in an organization run by humans, and with those with no commitment to faith, certainly they don't have an eye for the hand of God working in such an organization. That is fine. Just start seeing humans for what they are and always have been. The LDS is no different. You could have a site dedicated to the exposing of the faults of Republicans, and you could do the same thing about a political subject in a dignified and humanly kind way as Democrats if you were democrat. Anyway. All of this is the human condition, and isn't the fault of God. If God is working through the LDS, then his hand is imperceptible to you, not being believers. That is unsurprising. But it is also unsurprising that you find the human condition in an organization.

Those who hold fast to the iron rod with both eyes open are not surprised what we find. But we are trying to be dignified in our disagreement with what you do disagreeably. You people act like your choice to subscribe to the reductionist notion that science is the arbitrator of all truth, and that all truth is testable in the test tube and in the lab gives you the human right to be asses from a human-interaction point of view. It doesn't. The dignified norms of society and our culture don't support your idea that you can treat other people the way you do in this mocking fashion. From a legalistic point of view your right to be asses is supported in the constitution. But not by the norms of society, the way humans ought to treat each other from a very secular point of view. Therefore, I call on you appealing in a human way, to stop being assholes, and be dignified.

Thanks.

[Kishkumen]

Bob,

Thank you so much for posting. I am glad that you have decided to declare your presence here and make a strong statement. I tend to agree with you that it is better to be more dignified. At the same time, I think there is a place for having some fun and finding humor in things. That goes both ways. People who dish out a little ribbing need to be able to take some in return.

I will say something in response to your specific beef with Philo. I really don't think he is doing what he is doing for our approval, honestly. If that is true--and I don't think it is--Philo should know, as I hope I have communicated to him in the past, and I don't think that I am alone:

We all liked him when he was an apologist.

Yes, Philo is the kind of guy most people just can't help liking. So, I am confident that he is not doing what he is doing for our approval. He knows that we have always liked him for being a decent and likable person. Yes, he does go a little far in his anger these days. And, I have taken him to task a little bit for doing that. At some point, I think we just have to accept that he is where he is. Whether he is angry or happy, Philo is welcome here. Whether he believes or does not, Philo is welcome here. Because he is a good guy.

When it comes to Shulem and the temple specifically, yes, I do not care for that. At all. But, here we have fora where people are able to post what they want to post. On Terrestrial we should not see temple content. In Telestial people are free to post that stuff, and that is the reason I rarely go there. There is only so much vulgarity and blasphemy that I can handle.

Now, all that said, I appreciate you coming here to visit, and I hope you come here regularly. We really do need more believing voices here, and so please do come by to chime in with your own honest perspective and your criticisms of the critics. Whatever you want to post, this is the place to do it. I hope that you will be treated with dignity and respect, but I confess that things can be a little rough and tumble here. But you presumably know that from lurking.

[Ed1]

Bob,

Thank you so much for posting. I am glad that you have decided to declare your presence here and make a strong statement. I tend to agree with you that it is better to be more dignified. At the same time, I think there is a place for having some fun and finding humor in things. That goes both ways. People who dish out a little ribbing need to be able to take some in return.

I will say something in response to your specific beef with Philo. I really don't think he is doing what he is doing for our approval, honestly. If that is true--and I don't think it is--Philo should know, as I hope I have communicated to him in the past, and I don't think that I am alone:

We all liked him when he was an apologist.

Yes, Philo is the kind of guy most people just can't help liking. So, I am confident that he is not doing what he is doing for our approval. He knows that we have always liked him for being a decent and likable person. Yes, he does go a little far in his anger these days. And, I have taken him to task a little bit for doing that. At some point, I think we just have to accept that he is where he is. Whether he is angry or happy, Philo is welcome here. Whether he believes or does not, Philo is welcome here. Because he is a good guy.

When it comes to Shulem and the temple specifically, yes, I do not care for that. At all. But, here we have fora where people are able to post what they want to post. On Terrestrial we should not see temple content. In Telestial people are free to post that stuff, and that is the reason I rarely go there. There is only so much vulgarity and blasphemy that I can handle.

Now, all that said, I appreciate you coming here to visit, and I hope you come here regularly. We really do need more believing voices here, and so please do come by to chime in with your own honest perspective and your criticisms of the critics. Whatever you want to post, this is the place to do it. I hope that you will be treated with dignity and respect, but I confess that things can be a little rough and tumble here. But you presumably know that from lurking.

Thank you Kishkumen. Glad to be here. I have had my nose bloodied here many a time when I had actually posted, seeking feedback, etc. Some of you were overly critical for no good reason, and some of you refuse to admit that rational humans exist outside of a secular worldview. You all refuse to grant rationality to someone that rationally chooses religion as their chosen way, but who also practices something scientific for a day job, or who chooses to believe in science along with religion. The LDS point of view never stopped good scientists from being as rational as the rest when doing science. Sorry, it just didn't. And I continue to reject the fact that some of you will not admit that I and many like me are as rational as you not withstanding our choice to believe in certain truth claims without the type of evidence you want to see for it to be testable the way it would have to be. It is one thing to say that science is not in support of something, and that can be admitted. It is another to call someone irrational for believing something that science doesn't support. What makes them irrational is if they insist that science is in support of something it is not. That is an apologetic problem, not a believer problem.

I watch this board as a source of entertainment as if it were a looney toones cartoon show, where I consider each of you a character of sorts. I know who many of you are, and have watched you for a very long time, and have interacted with you. I get the same entertainment value from Mormon Stories, and to see John Dehlin blow his top. I watched him go downhill in his beliefs, up until his excommunication, and the spectacle that he put on during his excommunication, and the spectacle that he continues to put on. Its all like the Young and the Restless but John Dehlin as the main actor. Like a daily soap opera. And all the various actors he brings on, and all of their stories. It is very entertaining indeed, very riveting.

I will be truly bored and go out of my mind if the Russians ever cut the cables at the bottom of the ocean or take out our satellites and the Internet goes down. It will be a sad day indeed for my daily entertainment.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

So, if you’re entertained by our shenanigans, why would you want us to be boring? It’s akin to complaining about R-rated movies, and then popping The Predator into your Betamax for a 50th viewing.

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

Thank you Kishkumen. Glad to be here. I have had my nose bloodied here many a time. I watch this board as a source of entertainment as if it were a looney toones cartoon show, where I consider each of you a character of sorts. I know who many of you are, and have watched you for a very long time, and have interacted with you. I get the same entertainment value from Mormon Stories, and to see John Dehlin blow his top. I watched him go downhill in his beliefs, up until his excommunication, and the spectacle that he put on during his excommunication, and the spectacle that he continues to put on. Its all like the Young and the Restless but John Dehlin as the main actor. Like a daily soap opera. And all the various actors he brings on, and all of their stories. It is very entertaining indeed, very riveting.

I will be truly bored and go out of my mind if the Russians ever cut the cables at the bottom of the ocean or take out our satellites and the Internet goes down. It will be a sad day indeed for my daily entertainment.

Well, good then. I think that a lot of what goes on here is entertaining. There is a deliberate degree of LARPing to it, and that helps make it fun for all of us. Yes, it was quite interesting to watch Dehlin's saga. I enjoy his interviews, as I also enjoy consiglieri's work at RFM. For me, listening to such interviewees as Brian Hauglid, Shannon Caldwell Montez, Lynn Packer, Phil McLemore, Roger Hendrix and others is an absolute delight.

[Ed1]

So, if you’re entertained by our shenanigans, why would you want us to be boring? It’s akin to complaining about R-rated movies, and then popping The Predator into your Betamax for a 50th viewing.

- Doc

Hmmm... Food for thought. Maybe because guiltily, I profit entertainment-wise from your shenanigans hypocritically, but wish you were better human beings to us. Hmmm... Good point.

[Ed1]

Thank you Kishkumen. Glad to be here. I have had my nose bloodied here many a time. I watch this board as a source of entertainment as if it were a looney toones cartoon show, where I consider each of you a character of sorts. I know who many of you are, and have watched you for a very long time, and have interacted with you. I get the same entertainment value from Mormon Stories, and to see John Dehlin blow his top. I watched him go downhill in his beliefs, up until his excommunication, and the spectacle that he put on during his excommunication, and the spectacle that he continues to put on. Its all like the Young and the Restless but John Dehlin as the main actor. Like a daily soap opera. And all the various actors he brings on, and all of their stories. It is very entertaining indeed, very riveting.

I will be truly bored and go out of my mind if the Russians ever cut the cables at the bottom of the ocean or take out our satellites and the Internet goes down. It will be a sad day indeed for my daily entertainment.

Well, good then. I think that a lot of what goes on here is entertaining. There is a deliberate degree of LARPing to it, and that helps make it fun for all of us. Yes, it was quite interesting to watch Dehlin's saga. I enjoy his interviews, as I also enjoy consiglieri's work at RFM. For me, listening to such interviewees as Brian Hauglid, Shannon Caldwell Montez, Lynn Packer, Phil McLemore, Roger Hendrix and others is an absolute delight.

Ah, yes, for sure. Absolute delight from consiglieri for sure.

[Dr Moore]

You people get on here and find fault. Go ahead and expose what you disagree with if you wish, but in a dignified matter, as there is plenty of imperfection to find, as with any human-run organization.

Hi Bob, and a warm welcome from my small corner of campus. I remember also being on Prodigy. What a throwback!

I too agree, with Kishkumen, that dignity and civility should be a prevailing value in any venue that explores matters of faith and science.

Personally, I learned of this board after watching the undignified bullying of less/non believing participants at a certain faith-promoting blog operated by one of the leading church apologists. In my relatively short time here, I've come to appreciate the people on this board on two dimensions: honesty and insight.

The subject matter, by its nature, evokes strong emotions -- I am sure you understand. If civility falls short, that is a reflection of the emotional ego, and an understandable one. More importantly to me, lapses in dignity are not an indictment of the underlying honesty or insight.

In my experience, most of the active users of this board do not come here to "find fault" with a "human-run organization." Rather, they participate and find community here because the latest fault is some shade of "deception" relating to complex matters, with lasting implications on our family and friend communities, committed by authority figures who claim to speak for God in a "God-run organization."

[Gadianton]

Bob,

What do you think of Lou Midgley downvoting nice comments toward Gina Colvin on her own blog (her "living room" per Midgley's belief that Sic et Non is DCP's "living room") and upvoting negative comments; one of them referring to her as "Legion" -- a name for Satan and/or sons of perdition?

[kairos]

Bob
Welcome! i do not know you so others may not as well but i for one would like to hear your story from the beginning through some low or high points, things on you shelf, and what keeps you going as a Saint and why you spend time on apologetic and now this board?
i agree respect should Be given But remember that loss of faith that was perhaps half a lifetime can bring anger and rage to the party. For me as non-member with TBM wife and 4 adult children all in for the church, i am said they cannot see the obvious to me deception and lying that was in the past and even now eg the 100 billion EP fund and total non-transparency in church finances. i have attended over 35 years of 3 hour blocks beside my own evangelical services. i would be happy to send you my story if you PM.