Has the Baton Been Passed from Gee to Smoot?

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Kishkumen
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Re: Has the Baton Been Passed from Gee to Smoot?

Post by Kishkumen »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:05 am
The Book of Abraham is like the Kobayashi Maru of Mopologetics: it’s the ultimate “no-win situation,” and that’s why old-guard people like DCP, Welch, Hamblin, and Midgley would never touch it with a ten-foot pole. They have *always* farmed this stuff out to Gee, and they haven’t always been very supportive when he’s gotten slammed for doing “their” dirty work. But here comes Smoot! He no doubt fancies himself the James T. Kirk of Mopologetics, but in order for that to work, he’s going to have to figure out how to reprogram the system so that he can win. And he seems clueless about how to do that. (Hint: only the actual Captain Kirk can figure out how to do that, and guess what? Captain Kirk is a fictional character, just like Captain Moroni!)
Excellent scholarship, Doctor Scratch. As always, you inspire us with your keen eye and finger on the pulse of Mopologetics. Here we have Smoot, who is, in many ways, the ideal frontman for the new era of Mopologetics. He can appeal in his special nerdy way to people under 40. He even bucks the stereotypes of Mormon masculinity in ways that are compatible with Millennial and younger generations' sensibilities.

At base, though, is he not just part of Gee's arsenal of cannon fodder in a pattern that goes back to ZLMB? I mean, it used to be that Kevin Graham was that person, but he hit the eject button as soon as he realized that Brent Metcalfe seemed to understand the evidence of the papyri and KEG better than Gee, and then it dawned on Kevin that Gee was actually holding out on him and only parceling out the latest ad hoc defense that obscured the truth: that Book of Abraham apologetics were completely bankrupt. Kevin said goodbye to Book of Abraham apologetics and Mormonism too not long thereafter.

Smoot is perfect, though. He does not have another gig that we know of. (I hope he does as he certainly is more than capable.) He has just enough training and is quite intelligent, and he is utterly committed to the cause. Finally, he, like others, loves to cross sabres and insult critics. Smoot could stick with this cause forever, and, although I think that would be unfortunate, there are much worse things he could be doing, such as work for Steve Bannon, etc.

In any case, this argument about Egyptian narrative structure is just another in a long line of silly arguments that show the apologists flailing desperately again. I have never quite understood why Abraham from Ur of the Chaldees should be writing in Egyptian. If it was a later Egyptian author writing this, then I am not sure why we need to be concerned about its value regarding Abraham. Well, it is about Abraham in the same sense that any non-Fundamentalist scholar or reader considers him to be in any old text. Now, that is no problem for me. But then I am not the person who has insisted for so long that these texts had to be "by the hand of Abraham" or "by the hand of Mormon" in order for them to be super cooler than other ancient texts and worthy of special notice and admiration. Once the hand of Abraham is taken out of the picture, it is not clear to me why Hellenistic Egyptian writer A is any better than Joseph Smith as a purveyor of stories about Abraham.

I mean, that is cool with me. I don't need Joseph Smith's stories about Abraham to be written by the hand of Abraham for them to be cool. That, however, is precisely what the apologists have always insisted must be the case until the Hellenistic-Roman-era author theory was introduced. Now we see Smoot telling us that the author must have written the whole thing in a special Egyptian narrative style which "Abraham," if anyone is to make the first error of thinking the mythical hero we encounter in the Bible is a real person, would do with all of his experience in "Egyptian?"

You know, Herodotus likely visited Egypt and yet he did not start writing his Histories in Egyptian or using Egyptian narrative style/organization, at least to my knowledge. I can't recall anyone having argued such a thing. But here, in Mormonia, we have a young guy with an MA in Egyptology telling us that a 19th century text "translated" from Heaven knows what and claiming to be about the Biblical Abraham is clearly following such an ancient Egyptian narrative pattern?

Mopologists seem somewhere along the way to lose all sense for how plain bonkers stuff like this looks. That said, it is always popcorn viewing for those of us who enjoy following these hijinks. Whether it is the Ghost Committee or Tiberius Julius Alexander's Book of Abraham translated by the scribes working in the Library of the Serapeum in Alexandria, it is always a wild theory and a wild ride.
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Re: Has the Baton Been Passed from Gee to Smoot?

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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:05 am
The Book of Abraham is like the Kobayashi Maru of Mopologetics: it’s the ultimate “no-win situation,” and that’s why old-guard people like DCP, Welch, Hamblin, and Midgley would never touch it with a ten-foot pole. They have *always* farmed this stuff out to Gee, and they haven’t always been very supportive when he’s gotten slammed for doing “their” dirty work. But here comes Smoot! He no doubt fancies himself the James T. Kirk of Mopologetics, but in order for that to work, he’s going to have to figure out how to reprogram the system so that he can win. And he seems clueless about how to do that. (Hint: only the actual Captain Kirk can figure out how to do that, and guess what? Captain Kirk is a fictional character, just like Captain Moroni!)

Indeed, Captain Kirk is a fictional character and Star Trek is entirely from the imagination and fantasy of the mind just like the makings of the Book of Abraham was an imaginary work and fantasy. The king's name in Facsimile No. 3 is a fantasy and DCP won't comment on that! Isn't that right, Dan?

What will Smoot do? He's stuck in-between a rock and a hard place (pun intended). Unlike captain Kirk and James Bond (RIP) who always got their women, poor Smoot is stuck having to fantasize about what he can't get unless he quits the Church. Been there, done that. Ha ha!
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Re: Has the Baton Been Passed from Gee to Smoot?

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:But then I am not the person who has insisted for so long that these texts had to be "by the hand of Abraham" or "by the hand of Mormon" in order for them to be super cooler than other ancient texts and worthy of special notice and admiration. Once the hand of Abraham is taken out of the picture, it is not clear to me why Hellenistic Egyptian writer A is any better than Joseph Smith as a purveyor of stories about Abraham.

Joseph Smith's "hand of Abraham" had a totally different meaning to the saints in Kirtland and Nauvoo than it does for the saints in Salt Lake who have been separated from the original source. Nibley, Gee, and Smoot don't represent Smith's views because Smith's views have been proven false. Smith's Abraham ship sunk long ago on its maiden voyage. What's left is a diving expedition wherein today's divers are attempting to reinvent that ship and are assembling the pieces in whatever manner they think best.
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Re: Has the Baton Been Passed from Gee to Smoot?

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:05 am
The Book of Abraham is like the Kobayashi Maru of Mopologetics: it’s the ultimate “no-win situation,” and that’s why old-guard people like DCP, Welch, Hamblin, and Midgley would never touch it with a ten-foot pole. They have *always* farmed this stuff out to Gee, and they haven’t always been very supportive when he’s gotten slammed for doing “their” dirty work. But here comes Smoot! He no doubt fancies himself the James T. Kirk of Mopologetics, but in order for that to work, he’s going to have to figure out how to reprogram the system so that he can win. And he seems clueless about how to do that. (Hint: only the actual Captain Kirk can figure out how to do that, and guess what? Captain Kirk is a fictional character, just like Captain Moroni!)
Fascinating post, Dr. Scratch. It will be very interesting to follow young Smoot's career as a Mopologist and see of he can come up with a creative approach regarding the Book of Abraham. I personally don't think he is up to the task. Far greater minds have spent their entire career on this fruitless endeavor and have failed.
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Re: Has the Baton Been Passed from Gee to Smoot?

Post by Moksha »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:56 am
It will be very interesting to follow young Smoot's career as a Mopologist and see of he can come up with a creative approach regarding the Book of Abraham.
From the days of the Romulator at East High School to carrying around the bucket at the Mopologetic Garden of Versaille to taking over for Dr. Gee in the defense of the Book of Abraham. It has been an upward trajectory.
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Re: Has the Baton Been Passed from Gee to Smoot?

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:05 pm
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:05 am
The Book of Abraham is like the Kobayashi Maru of Mopologetics: it’s the ultimate “no-win situation,” and that’s why old-guard people like DCP, Welch, Hamblin, and Midgley would never touch it with a ten-foot pole. They have *always* farmed this stuff out to Gee, and they haven’t always been very supportive when he’s gotten slammed for doing “their” dirty work. But here comes Smoot! He no doubt fancies himself the James T. Kirk of Mopologetics, but in order for that to work, he’s going to have to figure out how to reprogram the system so that he can win. And he seems clueless about how to do that. (Hint: only the actual Captain Kirk can figure out how to do that, and guess what? Captain Kirk is a fictional character, just like Captain Moroni!)
Excellent scholarship, Doctor Scratch. As always, you inspire us with your keen eye and finger on the pulse of Mopologetics. Here we have Smoot, who is, in many ways, the ideal frontman for the new era of Mopologetics. He can appeal in his special nerdy way to people under 40. He even bucks the stereotypes of Mormon masculinity in ways that are compatible with Millennial and younger generations' sensibilities.
Thank you, Reverend. Yes: I think that Smoot is trying to position himself into....something. I think his judgment is off. But there can be no mistake that he'd be quite the "asset" for the Mopologists, precisely on account of what you are referring to. Smoot is an absolutely impeccable dresser: dapper beyond any reasonable expectation that one might have for the Mopologists. (I actually like Royal Skousen's style quite a bit, I might add. Cool glasses frames, and interesting suits--usually tweed, if I'm not mistaken.) So this has to do with the public image of Mopologetics. Given that, you sort of have to default to the thinking of the "top dogs," such as Lindsey, Wyatt, Peterson, and Midgley. Are they okay with this--particularly the "metrosexual" vibe that Smoot projects? (I think that they view certain of Smoot's traits as "effeminate.") Rather predictably, the mention of this latest article has been lukewarm at best. In other words: they just seem to be sort of "tolerating" him since he is pretty much all they've got. But you can sense the "disgust." If I'm wrong about that, then let them correct me.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Has the Baton Been Passed from Gee to Smoot?

Post by Kishkumen »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:19 am
Thank you, Reverend. Yes: I think that Smoot is trying to position himself into....something. I think his judgment is off. But there can be no mistake that he'd be quite the "asset" for the Mopologists, precisely on account of what you are referring to. Smoot is an absolutely impeccable dresser: dapper beyond any reasonable expectation that one might have for the Mopologists. (I actually like Royal Skousen's style quite a bit, I might add. Cool glasses frames, and interesting suits--usually tweed, if I'm not mistaken.) So this has to do with the public image of Mopologetics. Given that, you sort of have to default to the thinking of the "top dogs," such as Lindsey, Wyatt, Peterson, and Midgley. Are they okay with this--particularly the "metrosexual" vibe that Smoot projects? (I think that they view certain of Smoot's traits as "effeminate.") Rather predictably, the mention of this latest article has been lukewarm at best. In other words: they just seem to be sort of "tolerating" him since he is pretty much all they've got. But you can sense the "disgust." If I'm wrong about that, then let them correct me.
Word on the street is that DCP is a family friend of the Smoots and that he has genuine avuncular concern for Young Smoot. So, I don’t know how the politics and dynamics of the situation play out. I am hopeful that Young Smoot finds his niche, but I would prefer that he get a real job and abandon Mopologetics. I have no gripe with his love of Mormonism. There are many ways of expressing Mormon nerdiness, however. What the world needs less of is Mopologetic hostility. I guess it keeps us employed at old Cassius U. There is that. If we weren’t graduating so many counter-Mopologists, we couldn’t keep the lights on.
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Re: Has the Baton Been Passed from Gee to Smoot?

Post by consiglieri »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:05 pm

You know, Herodotus likely visited Egypt and yet he did not start writing his Histories in Egyptian or using Egyptian narrative style/organization, at least to my knowledge. I can't recall anyone having argued such a thing. But here, in Mormonia, we have a young guy with an MA in Egyptology telling us that a 19th century text "translated" from Heaven knows what and claiming to be about the Biblical Abraham is clearly following such an ancient Egyptian narrative pattern?
This argument alone appears to cut the up-and-coming Egyptologist Apologist Smoot's argument off at the knees.

Brilliantly conceived.

Beautifully articulated.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Has the Baton Been Passed from Gee to Smoot?

Post by Kishkumen »

consiglieri wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:48 am
This argument alone appears to cut the up-and-coming Egyptologist Apologist Smoot's argument off at the knees.

Brilliantly conceived.

Beautifully articulated.
Why, thank you, consiglieri! I hope always to live up to your positive appreciation of my best posts.
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Re: Has the Baton Been Passed from Gee to Smoot?

Post by Physics Guy »

It might be understandable for non-historians to suppose naïvely that all ancient cultures were somehow close to each other, such that an Akkadian would be very likely to think or write similarly to an Egyptian, or whatever. All those ancient societies are equally unfamiliar to us, so it's tempting to imagine that they're all in one little box.

It's not really plausible, though, because just take recent Western Europe. Over a distance you can walk in a day you can get radical changes in language, religion, architecture, food and drink, music—you name it. The local variation is kind of cool, and surprisingly durable, inasmuch as not even TV and the internet have eradicated it yet.

It seems more likely to me that Abraham (if he existed) would have written in a totally non-Egyptian style.

The idea that anybody would adopt the language and writing conventions of a foreign country they happened to visit, for an important project, seems like something that would only occur to someone who lived in an unusually homogeneous culture where you can go five thousand miles to eat identical food. But oh, this hot sauce is different. Let's take some home, and know what? From now on this weird, foreign stuff is our hot sauce. We'll buy it in boxes online.

When a foreign culture is a lot more foreign than just a new kind of sauce, people don't just adopt it. Judaism has always been all about that, in fact. By the waters of Babylon we remembered Zion. And we didn't start writing our psalms in Babylonian style.

Or did they, in fact? I don't actually know. This is just my best guess.
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