Shout Out to Shulem!

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Shulem
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Re: Shout Out to Jeff Lindsay!

Post by Shulem »

Apologist Jeff Lindsay wrote:
So, if the drawing of Facs. 1 is correct, Joseph would seem to be correct in identifying the bald man as a priest. And if the head really should be that of a jackal, what then? First, it could mean that Reuben Hedlock, the artist who made the woodcut, got something wrong. But the Facsimiles are not said to be sacred or divinely inspired. An error in the drawings poses little to fret about. But if the head should be that of a jackal, then Joseph would still be exactly right in identifying that being with a priest, as he did in his interpretation of the figure. It has long been known that priests wore masks of the gods they were impersonating, According to John Gee [John Gee, 1995, pp. 79-82]

Questions About the Book of Abraham, Part 2: Evidences for Plausibility

Jeff Lindsay presents a very bad argument and lies in trying to downplay the importance of the Facsimiles when saying that they were not considered "sacred or divinely inspired". According to Smith, depictions on Facsimile No. 2 have representations of God and even the Holy Ghost -- and this having been drawn by the very hand of Abraham. I'll remind Lindsay that Facsimile No. 2 is said to contain Key-words of the Holy Priesthood and that writings in the registers "cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God." So, Lindsay is absolutely wrong in saying that Smith did not CLAIM the Facsimiles were sacred or divinely inspired.

Notice above that Lindsay takes comfort in blaming Reuben Hedlock (engraver) rather than Joseph Smith in the event the head in Facsimile No. 1 was not right -- "GOT SOMETHING WRONG". Blame Reuben, not Joseph! It's the same old song and dance of blaming the scribes rather than the prophet. This pathetic reasoning holds no water, especially since we know for a fact that Smith (chief editor) was in charge of the Facsimiles at the press and managed the projects exactly how he wanted.

Notice further, Lindsay defends Smith at any cost, whether the head in Facsimile No. 1 is a jackal or a human head because Egyptian priests wore jackal masks -- therefore, Smith is correct no matter what! But what about Facsimile No. 3? We aren't dealing with a lacuna or missing head. We are dealing with a jackal head that was originally carved into the lead plate to match the papyrus vignette and afterwards mutilated to agree with Smith's original story that the BLACK MAN of Facsimile No. 3 was a slave.

What have you to say about that, Jeff Linday -- liar for the Lord? Are you going to blame Hedlock for that too and let Smith off the hook?
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Re: Shout Out to Jim Bennett!

Post by Shulem »

JIM BENNETT wrote: A CES LETTER REPLY

4. Misidentifies the Egyptian god Anubis 11 as a slave. Wait a minute. That guy’s Anubis? Isn’t Anubis the one with the jackal’s head in all your nonFacsimile 1-resembling couch scenes? Why does this Anubis look nothing like the other Anubises? He looks like an ancient Ed Grimley with that weird spurt of hair sticking out of his head. Fact is, this interpretation, like all of the interpretations you offer, are far from definitive, Kevin Mathie notwithstanding.

Image

PICTURED: ANUBIS
Or maybe Kevin Mathie

Obviously, Jim Bennett takes pleasure in mocking the sacred image of another religion's god and thinks it's funny. Par for the course. To mock and joke for the sake of deriving humor is not much of an explanation.

Bennett's testimony must be teetering on the edge. There's a cliff, Jim. Just jump and get it over with already!
Last edited by Shulem on Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shout Out to Hugh Nibley!

Post by Shulem »

Hugh Nibley went to any means to defend Joseph Smith and would decry all accusations of fraud against him.

From an early series of lectures in defending the Book of Abraham, Nibley even insisted that a missing jackal head (jackal head vs. human head), whether in Facsimile No. 1 or 3, was not a problem. He insisted that Smith was on the up and up when it came to making an honest copy of the vignettes into Hedlock's Facsimiles.

Nibley wrote:If the crime of forgery has been committed here, it is by one who went to great trouble and risk to alter documents that had far better been left unaltered as far as Joseph Smith’s interests were concerned.

Then there is the matter of style. If we attribute the irregularities in the figures to deliberate transformation, we must still admit that the alterations are by no means such as a modern artist would make.
Nibley wrote:Though we are told that much has been changed in the drawings, plainly nothing has been Americanized in the process, and nothing has been redrawn to fit with a particular interpretation. The criminal has failed to leave any traces of his personality and style.

Oh my, crime of forgery? Imagine if Nibley had been able to magnify the lead printing plate of Facsimile No. 3 and carefully examine the detailing about the face of Fig. 6! Do you suppose he might begin to wonder if the documents really were altered to suit Smith's interest? I have to think that Nibley would begin to suspect that Smith really did Americanize the face of the BLACK MAN in order to match Smith's interpretation of a "slave" -- to make it agreeable with Egyptian iconography, although modified and altered by an American artist.

Here we see, the criminal (Joseph Smith) did in fact leave traces of his personality and style -- based on misconceptions and 19th century thinking.

If only Hugh had known! But wait, he would have kept it quiet and under wraps just like Joseph Fielding Smith did with Joseph Smith's First Vision Account. That's what Mormons do best; hide, deceive, and lie. Isn't that right, RFM?


A New Look at the Pearl of Great Price: Part 5: Facsimile No. 1, A Unique Document
Improvement Era, Vol. 71, No. 9 (September 1968)
consiglieri
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Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by consiglieri »

I love your insights, as usual, Shulem!

Let me add one other thought to further buttress your claims regarding Joseph Smith intentionally having Anubis' snout hacked off the lead plate made for Facsimile 3.

It appears he did a similar thing with the papyrus of Facsimile 1.

Kerry Muhlestein made a point at last summer's FairMormon conference of pointing out the dried glue still in the lacunae of the papyrus for Facsimile 1.

In other words, we know the papyrus was glued to the backing. If the only papyrus extant in Joseph Smith's day was what we have now, we would expect the only glue to have been used would be behind the papyrus as we have it now.

But there is also dried glue in places where we have no papyrus now.

This suggests to Muhlestein, as it does to me, that there may have been more papyrus glued to the backing, but that some of that papyrus came off or was removed, thereby accounting for the dried glue where we have no papyrus today.

I believe one of these glue spots is in the area of the former head of Anubus. (I just checked and the dried glue appears to have been a continuous arc commencing from the head of Anubis down and to the right to the body of Abraham on the lion couch. See if you don't agree.)

If this is correct, it would seem likely that the papyrus with Facsimile 1 still contained Anubuis' head when it came into Joseph Smith's possession, and also when it was originally glued to the backing for preservation.

But that piece of papyri containing Anubis' head was removed, either intentionally or unintentionally, prior to using a pencil to draw in the head of a bald man.

Is it possible, do you think, that Joseph Smith had trouble fitting in a jackal headed Egyptian priest into his narrative of the Book of Abraham, and therefore had it removed after it was pasted onto the backing, specifically in order to have the human head drawn in?

This theory seems similar to what you have discovered with the snout being hacked off Anubis on the lead plate for Facsimile 3.

Except with Facsimile 1, it was the papyrus itself that was altered, and instead of Anubis's snout being removed, it was his entire head.

Thoughts?
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IT'S IN THE GLUE!

Post by Shulem »

consiglieri,

Thank you for the input above and for complimenting my work. You'll recall at the old Mormon Discussion board, I posted a thread entitled: Pearl of Great Price Central Facsimile 1 as a Sacrifice Scene; well, I've since copied that thread and pasted it down below in the Archives forum of *this* board to ensure its preservation because I believe it contains important research and thoroughly rebuts the apologists -- chopping the knees out from under the Book of Abraham:

Pearl of Great Price Central Facsimile 1 as a Sacrifice Scene

Unfortunately, I didn't get much attention or help in discussing the glue issue, perhaps readers don't think it's important. I'm going to cut and paste posts about the glue from that thread into this post so that it may be easily referenced. Let's look that over and I'll have more to say, I'm sure. Bear in mind, everything pertaining to the Book of Abraham is a deception on Smith's part. He went into the project with dirty hands, from start to finish -- the whole project was a dirty and dishonest work.

Kerry Muhlestein wrote:At the same time there were several things which were not stated in the podcast. For example, the glue marks suggest that the part of the drawing in question, which is missing now, was not always missing. It is quite possible, perhaps even probable, that it was actually in place when Joseph Smith first had the papyri, and that the facsimile was based on what he had actually seen at one point. Further, we cannot tell the extent to which Reuben Hedlock, the artist, was acting on Joseph Smith’s instruction and how much was his own initiative.
The "glue marks" are clearly bubbled either over or under the penciled sketching of the uppermost portion of the priest's hair. Regardless, the interpretation of a man's head in full frontal position and an upward drawn knife was imagined in spite of the possibility that there may have actually been an original head in the extant lacuna. I've ever entertained the idea in past postings that the original head may have survived and that Smith intentionally peeled it off in order to suit his own needs. We will never know. But the remains of the headdress are present and Anubis is always Anubis. The pencil sketch and the Facsimile that was published is not germane to the Anubis depicted in funerary art.

Original Papyrus

Kerry Muhlestein wrote:Additionally, whether originally the drawing depicted Anubis’s jackal head or the head of a human, it would have been understood that the role being performed would have been performed by a priest. Perhaps it was a priest representing Anubis, but a priest nonetheless. Thus, if that piece of papyrus were missing when Joseph Smith first acquired it, and if he said it should be reconstructed to depict a priest, such a reconstruction would be accurate to the meaning of the drawing, which would be remarkable in and of itself.
The penciled in version of the priest's head drawn in full frontal position and the upward drawn knife is the ORIGINAL and FIRST interpretation of Smith's restoration. No matter how you slice it, Smith was wrong. And you, Kerry, are a lousy Egyptologist with a third rate education. The Church should fire you and hire someone else more qualified.
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Hello! Anyone here?

Is anybody clicking this link to peek and see what I'm yapping about?

Please, click the (Original Papyrus) link above and zoom into the glue. The swirl of glue on the paper backing. It may have been used to tack down missing fragments or it could have been spillage during the handling of the papyrus fragments upon the workman's table or, both.

What I am asking: Do you see the glue as OVER or UNDER the pencil marks consisting of the "priest's" head and breeches? I don't know if it can be positively determined without examining the papyrus/paper under higher magnification. But if it can be determined whether the glue is over or under this will provide another clue in determining the process in which the vignette was interpreted.

Please comment.


https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/egyptian-papyri-circa-300-bc-ad-50/19

The photo above of another fragment seems crystal clear that dried glue (caramel color) and blobs of it are clearly OVER the preexisting ruled lines that were on the paper backing BEFORE the papyrus was mounted. This gives us a good comparison by which to better judge the glue smudges on the paper backing of the priest's head. It will help us determine if the glue was blobbed over the penciling or if the pencil was drawn over the glue.

Frankly, it appears that the glue is on top of ALL the penciling not just the preexisting ruled lines but the sketching as well. That was my first reaction but further examination seems in order. I wish I could get a little help around here, Jesus.

Where is Doctor CamNC4Me when you need him!? :x

I've determined that the glue is indeed OVER all the penciling. More importantly, the glue is over the penciled sketch of the priest's hair and breaches. I don't see any traces of papyrus stuck to the glue swirl. So, my immediate conclusion is that the swirl is the result of an unintended accident wherein glue was dribbled over the work area and the excess may have been wiped away. Hence, the sketch precedes the glue and was indeed the only and original image in which Smith endorsed until Hedlock later fashioned the plate years later having a different head with a new knife.

This seems reasonable. This also downplays Muhlestein's apologetic argument for Smith's actually seeing a priest's head on the original papyrus:
Kerry Muhlestein wrote:the glue marks suggest that the part of the drawing in question, which is missing now, was not always missing. It is quite possible, perhaps even probable, that it was actually in place when Joseph Smith first had the papyri, and that the facsimile was based on what he had actually seen at one point
Kerry Muhlestein wrote: At the same time there were several things which were not stated in the podcast. For example, the glue marks suggest that the part of the drawing in question, which is missing now, was not always missing. It is quite possible, perhaps even probable, that it was actually in place when Joseph Smith first had the papyri, and that the facsimile was based on what he had actually seen at one point. Further, we cannot tell the extent to which Reuben Hedlock, the artist, was acting on Joseph Smith’s instruction and how much was his own initiative.

Let's return to the asinine statement made earlier by Muhlestein which has already been commented on but deserves more commentary in light of how bad it is. First, we all know that Muhlestein is an EXAGGERATOR such as his "millions" of "mummies" at his Egyptian dig site. Muhlestein loves to exaggerate!

Now look at his statement above: "quite possible" that there could have been a chunk of papyrus in place where there is now lacuna. How about just say, "possible" and leave off the "quite"? Saying "quite" makes it sound like it's really, really, really possible or, "perhaps even probable", which was what came out of his next breath! Kerry want us to think that there is an excellent chance that Smith actually saw a man's head and a knife on the papyrus before it fell apart and Smith had faithfully recorded those details in his restoration. This is Muhlestein's little way (trick up his sleeve) of leading his readers down a garden path of deception.

We know there NEVER was a knife. That's not even possible because it defies all logic and common sense and what would Abubis need a knife for while Osiris is rising from the dead? So, no, it's not possible that there was a knife on the original. The remnants of the headdress wipe out Muhlestein's possibility for a man's head. Smith's restoration of the head and knife shown in the crude sketch drawn on the paper backing is WHAT was original to his mind and was the first attempt in making his restoration of what he never actually got to see in the first place because the lacuna was ever present when he opened the roll. Hence, Smith never saw a knife or a man's head!

Muhlestein has ZERO evidence to support the idea that a knife or man's head was original to the papyrus. Absolutely no evidence whatsoever! Funerary art and design won't hint of any evidence either. Muhlestein's faith in Smith's restoration is all he has to go on. That's all he has, hence his hands come up empty.
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Under or Over?

Post by Shulem »

I'm certainly willing to be shown that I'm wrong about the glue being over the penciling. I've given it my best shot and without any help from anyone on this damned board!

Perhaps higher magnification is required to determine for sure whether the graphite is over or under the glue. At this point, I'm not absolutely positive or certain but have come to a conclusion based on what I can see using the magnification available.

It would be nice to get a little help around here. I feel a little frustrated not being positive about the glue and graphite penciling. IF, the glue is under the graphite then that changes everything. That would be a big story and lead to serious questions and further investigation.
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Over or Under?

Post by Shulem »

The more I look at it and zoom in and out, I'm left to really wonder -- it looks like the graphite penciling is rubbed over a sheen of dried glue wherein the whole surface of the paper was originally wiped with a thin sheen of glue with some puddling or dribbles. Then the paper was set in place. THEN, the penciling took place after fragments were broken off??

WTF?

Where the hell are smart people on this board when you really need them? Thanks for nothing you idiots.

:x

“F” this place.

I'm so damned pissed off right now.

I just can't tell if the graphite is actually rubbed into the fibers of the paper or rubbed into a layer of glue.
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Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by Shulem »

consiglieri wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:19 pm

Kerry Muhlestein made a point at last summer's FairMormon conference of pointing out the dried glue still in the lacunae of the papyrus for Facsimile 1.

You'd think that Muhlestein and Gee would want to examine the glue more carefully to ascertain its placement and purpose in acting as an adhesive. You'd think they would want to know what areas effected by glue were originally used to tack papyrus to the paper -- and which areas were just spillage.

You'd think that Muhlestein and Gee would want to know if the graphite used to make the sketch of Abraham and the priest's head and knife is OVER or UNDER the glue. You'd think they would want to know that!

I want to know! I most certainly do. Who here, wants to know too?

WHAT CAME FIRST, THE SKETCH OR THE GLUE?

We are dealing with a crime scene and I need help in solving this case. I need to know the answer. Where the hell are all the smart people on this damned board?

I'm simply beside myself. I feel like people on this board (not you RFM) are a bunch of cheap idiots who refuse to lend a helping hand.

:evil:
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Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by honorentheos »

Some thoughts:

The grid doesn't appear to have been drawn on the full paper. I say that because they are missing in gaps between pieces and along the bottom where there should be lines visible.

Based on this, looking at the location where the arms are drawn in to connect to the hands suggests you are right. The glue "blob" could be the edge of original papyrus where it had pooled at the edge. Capillary action? Not sure. But the grid ends at the glue rather than the pictured edge of extant papyrus.

The drawn in head does look like the pencil wasn't able to smoothly draw over the blob created at this edge

It strikes me that the original Egyptian artist had a decent sense of facial proportions, conforming to the rule of thirds. But the person who sketches in the replacement for Anubis did not though it could have been worse. More importantly perhaps, they also couldn't avoid drawing a face from the front rather than a profile of a face. The Egyptian artist was quite capable with his profile view. The pencil artist was not likely copying something they had seen but was instead inserting in their impression of what a face looks like and made a mistake common of amateurs who draw symbols rather than representations.
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Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by Lem »

Shulem,

In the picture from the Joseph Smith papers site, I notice that a vertical glue break runs up through the headless guy, as though when they were laying down pieces to glue, they put a swipe of glue down vertically, then tried to match up the edges.

Starting at about the guy's knees, the matching up starts to go wrong. Maybe a fold wouldn't flatten out, or they tried to scooch them together and clumped the glue, like the long bubbly seam you get when you use too much glue, but in any case, by the time you get to the body that is between the two legs of the one laying down, the matching of the two pieces is clearly off.

Finally, by the time the two pieces end, it's off by a lot. Right above that, the drawing in starts.

And notice the penciled in neck and chin. The line of flesh seems to follow the papyrus edge EXACTLY, giving the sideways head look.

The reason I point all this out is that, IF the head were originally there, wouldn't they have been able to match up the two pieces better? Also, why draw in a head that exactly starts at the edge if there was a head originally there not tilting over, not facing front? It's not tilted over or facing front in the final rendition, right? So why sketch it like that, unless you has nothing to go by but edges?

It is hard to imagine that the mismatch of edges and weird head outline would be the way they were if there were originally a head there that was used to make the final rendition.

Just my two cents.
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