BYU did not authorise the lighting of the Y...

[IHAQ]

In contrast, while I will agree with you that it's assumed that same-sex relations aren't permitted by "doctrine", there's really nothing in the scriptures that says one way or another. While probably assumed by Joseph Smith, no firm revelations had ever been received about it. The point is, there is far more doctrinal baggage to work through to justify racial equity than there is to justify same-sex relationships. I, for one, believe that same-sex marriage will be permitted in Mormonism before women will get the priesthood.

Exactly. There are so very many scriptures still in place that reflect racial inequality. Somehow, those are ignored as the doctrine moves forward. (Notwithstanding some bizarre re-interpretations, such as black or white loincloths to reflect godliness. )

I believe it was Morley who said Gad may indeed have hit upon the gymnast’s most delicious fear; I would agree.

How many of the Church's practices and policies have supporting doctrine? I'll wager it's not very many. Most of the institutional operating policies and practices reflect the phobias and formative years era of the men currently in charge. This "cultural influence" has been something levied at Prophets long since dead to explain some of what is now seen as in error. There is no reason for not levying the same charge against living Prophets.

[Physics Guy]

Standing firmly against gay sex was too perfect a position to abandon as long as gay people stayed in the closet, because then it didn’t affect any straight people. A church can score lots of righteousness points without in the slightest upsetting any visible portion of its membership. And there’s nothing like getting to feel virtuous for refraining from a sin to which you are not tempted.

Gay people may be a minority, though, but people with gay friends or family are not. Most people know some gay people. Used to be, they didn’t know that they knew them. Now they more likely do.

That changes things. Now the church may not be imposing a direct hardship on straight people but it’s hurting people they know, people they like or love, for no reason that seems remotely sufficient. Person for person of course straight people are no more important than gay people but their numbers are more, and so I think it’s the indirect impact on the more numerous straight people that makes a difference for churches.

That impact only happens because gay people have the courage to come out to their friends and family. That’s the tough part. You need to trust that your friends and family will care more about you, and believe more in you, than in some arbitrary rules from their church.

Maybe it’s not true as often as it should be but I think that mostly, they will, and that’s why things will change.

[Moksha]

In many ways, this situation is the fault of the former Soviet Union. If they had not collapsed, Church leaders would still have the commies to be the focus of their white-hot anger. The LGBTQ community would have escaped the brunt of their wrath. Bad Soviet Union! Imagine the Y being lit up in red. The Brethren would go to DEFCON 2. BYU students would be divided into squadrons and issued lime rations.

[Shulem]

Physics Guy makes a very good point in reminding us that pretty much everyone knows someone who is gay -- whether a family member, personal friend, co-worker, or whatever. Pretty much everyone knows someone who is gay and odds are they like the person for who they are and respect their personal choices to govern their own lives.

Young people today are very tolerant of different viewpoints and I think the Internet may have something to do with this because of the vast collective of information available wherein the mind just wants to know more and more.

For the most part, nobody wants to pick on gays anymore. It's just pointless. The whole thing has become personal because everybody knows somebody who is gay and they don't really have a problem with that, per se. I think the idea of persecuting gays is being perceived as bullying and is just not cool.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

What does "Ya' got me there" mean? Did you not understand what you were writing? Did you write something you didn't mean? Did you make a mistake in lds doctrine? Were you caught in an exaggeration? Were you just preaching haphazardly? What?

Check the boxes that apply to the meaning of your statement, MG.

[ ] I didn't understand what I was writing
[ ] I wrote something I didn't mean
[ ] I made a mistake about LDS doctrine
[ ] I was exaggerating
[ ] I was preaching haphazardly
[ ] I promise not to do it again

Troll mopologist checks boxes 1-5, but def not #6.

- Doc

[mentalgymnast]

Check the boxes that apply to the meaning of your statement, MG.

[ ] I didn't understand what I was writing
[ ] I wrote something I didn't mean
[ ] I made a mistake about LDS doctrine
[ ] I was exaggerating
[ ] I was preaching haphazardly
[ ] I promise not to do it again

Troll mopologist checks boxes 1-5, but def not #6.

- Doc

Nope. I have already explained why I said what I did. Read my posts.

Making stuff up again?

Regards,
MG

[Shulem]

Nope. I have already explained why I said what I did. Read my posts.

Making stuff up again?

Regards,
MG

and,

[X] I promise I WILL do it again

Maybe you should do a little less thinking, MG. Think about that.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

If I believed mg were just an idiot I wouldn't have placed him on ignore, but I arrived at the inescapable conclusion he's an idiot-troll best left to others since they seem to enjoy making him an example of bad thinking.

How much do you want to bet that the idiot-troll is completely unaware of the fact that Brigham Young insisted on sharing beds with his Bishops when he'd travel? That he'd literally snuggle with them stating that sharing an embrace, in bed, with another man was the only way to truly love?

- Doc

[Shulem]

How much do you want to bet that the idiot-troll is completely unaware of the fact that Brigham Young insisted on sharing beds with his Bishops when he'd travel? That he'd literally snuggle with them stating that sharing an embrace, in bed, with another man was the only way to truly love?

- Doc

Please share your juicy information on that. That's not something I'm familiar with.

Give us the dirt, please.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Shulem,

It's Quinn's 'Same-Sex Dynamics among Nineteenth-Century Americans A Mormon Example'. Both Joseph Smith and BY loved to snuggle with men. Also, lots of same sex passionate letter writing, kisses, hand holding, etc. If you did this crap today, at BYU, your ass would be gone.

- Doc