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Tip of the Iceberg

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:34 am
by Shulem
I confess that I experienced a slight amount of trepidation in making some major assumptions about Uchtdorf's comments regarding this incident and have been extremely harsh in spite of not knowing all the facts. I get that. But, my instincts tell me these guys are rotten to the core and have been taking advantage of the the Church all their lives as special members of the Club. And you know what they say, "Membership has its privileges".

I have to think that this incidence is merely the tip of the iceberg and if we knew all the perks and expenses that these men take advantage of for themselves and their families we would be quite surprised. I think compensation for General Officers of the Club is much higher than any of us realize and is kept very private within the upper echelons of Church leadership. There is no telling what special benefits or payments are provided for the Officers that remain off the books but are nonetheless consumed in their own way and in their own time.

Re: Uchtdorf violates Church policy on political neutrality

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:44 am
by Shulem
Moksha wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:34 am
Shulem wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:02 am
Uchtdorf should be removed from his position. He cannot be trusted and has violated a sacred trust.
Uchtdorf's family was exercising their rights as German or American citizens. I am pleased to learn of this because it might enable some LDS families to vote their pocketbook rather than what they believe to be the desires of their Authorities. I wish he would go a step further, for the sake of Central and South Utah residents, and deny that Trump is the new messiah. Utah desperately needs the honesty that a two-party system can bring to government.

I too am pleased to learn that Uchtdorf seems to be one who voted for Biden along with another member of his family who made the illicit contributions. But the fact of the matter is the whole thing is highly improper and I seriously doubt Uchtdorf is being totally honest and the Church is not going to want to pursue this matter out in the open. The financial books of Mormonism are a closed affair.

I have to wonder if this incident will explode into a scandal or just disappear in the headlines and fade away.

Re: Uchtdorf violates Church policy on political neutrality

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:08 pm
by Moksha
Shulem wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:44 am
I have to wonder if this incident will explode into a scandal or just disappear in the headlines and fade away.
As Dr. Peterson found out the hard way, there are some terribly hardcore Trump worshippers who will strenuously object to any Biden support. No need for ex-Mormons to throw their support behind Trump just to stab at Uchtdorf at this late date. Trump was and remains an insane choice for President. Uchtdorf's family was doing something nice for America and the world. Uchtdorf is at least someone who "stands for something".

Re: Uchtdorf violates Church policy on political neutrality

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:30 pm
by Shulem
Moksha wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 1:08 pm
Shulem wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:44 am
I have to wonder if this incident will explode into a scandal or just disappear in the headlines and fade away.
As Dr. Peterson found out the hard way, there are some terribly hardcore Trump worshippers who will strenuously object to any Biden support. No need for ex-Mormons to throw their support behind Trump just to stab at Uchtdorf at this late date. Trump was and remains an insane choice for President. Uchtdorf's family was doing something nice for America and the world. Uchtdorf is at least someone who "stands for something".

I get what you're saying. And I'm very happy to know that they supported Biden. But the rules were broken, nonetheless. I have to wonder just how many of these rules have been broken and how long has this been going on? Is this the tip of an iceberg?

Calling Batman!

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 2:37 pm
by Shulem
This is a job for Radio Free Mormon.

Calling Radio Free Mormon! Come in, Radio Free Mormon.


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Re: Uchtdorf violates Church policy on political neutrality

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:03 pm
by kairos
In the good old days apostles could and did seek running on a party ticket for political office - can one say ETB? or Joseph Smith?

Thinking this through i feel the neutrality policy is BS!

k

An oversight?

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:09 pm
by Shulem
I think it's reasonable to compare the following Church rules to be equally understood by Uchtdorf and his wife whereby "oversight" could hardly be used as an excuse for violating Church policy?

1) Church buildings are not to be used for political purposes.
2) Apostles are not to make political contributions.

I think it's safe to assume that an apostle, his wife, and family, are not going to assume control of a church building in order to hold a political meeting or rally. Doesn't it seem reasonable that the Uchtdorf family knows full well that this is based on Church policy and that doing so is strictly forbidden?

Even so, you'd think that the Uchtdorf family knows that making political contributions from an account under the Uchtdorf name is strictly forbidden. The Uchtdorf's are not stupid. I think they broke the rules intentionally and have been caught. A full investigation might well show this to have been the actual case.

Uchtdorf should be worried. His family set at defiance Church policy and thumbed their nose up in order to pursue their political aims. They thought they could get away with it and have been caught. Open the books and let's see what else they've done.

Meeting with the First Presidency

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:49 pm
by Shulem
Brethren, which one of you is guilty of violating Church Policy?

Step forward and confess.

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Re: Uchtdorf violates Church policy on political neutrality

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:26 pm
by Shulem
Uchtdorf Family wrote:Oh the JOY of having a generous expense account with all kinds of secret perks and benefits. There is nothing we can't do as a family.

Spend, spend, spend!!!

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Thank you LDS Church for the money!
Uchtdorf Family wrote:It's all covered. We thank thee Oh Father for a prophet and our expense account!!

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Missionary service and FREE college tuition for my boys! Thank you LDS Church.

Re: Uchtdorf violates Church policy on political neutrality

Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:30 pm
by Res Ipsa
IHAQ wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:14 am
A separate point on this from a commenter on the Trib article...
There is a legal problem here: Elder Uchtdorf just stated that one of his family members made multiple campaign donations in his name. That is called a straw donor, and is illegal under 52 U.S.C. § 30122: "No person shall make a contribution in the name of another person". Is that family member going to be prosecuted?
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/03 ... /comments/
This was addressed in one of the articles. Absent intent to hide the identity of the donor, this case would not be considered a violation. The purpose of the statute is to prevent evasion of the donation limits. For example. Dined D’Souza and his his wife made a 10K donation to a senate campaign. The limit was 5k, and so the donation specified the total represented 5k each. So far, so good.

He then persuaded his mistress and another individual to donate 5K each, promising to reimburse them. They did and he did. The FEC records showed four donations in the amount of the 5K limit. In reality, though, D’Souza donated triple the limit.

He eventually confessed that he knew what the law was and intentionally violated it. After being sentenced to portion and serving part of his sentence, he was pardoned by Trump.

In the present case there is no evidence that anyone was attempting to deliberately mislead. All the donations were in the same name and were well within the donation limits for the various races. Now, if the donations were made at the request of someone ineligible to donate (like a foreign National), that would be a different story. I think it would be reasonable for the FEC to review bank accounts for evidence that the amounts donated were reimbursed, but I don’t know what their enforcement guidelines and priorities are.

So, I don’t foresee any legal fallout. And, Utchdorf’s donations don’t threaten the church’s tax exemption. (The church’s internal rules are more restrictive than the IRS’s.) But that doesn’t help with the violations of the Church’s neutrality rules.

For example, my wife and I share a PayPal account that is in her name because we originally set it up. But when I use the account to make an online donation, whether through a campaign website or a site like Act Blue, it doesn’t just record the donation as being from her. The campaigns have to report to the FEC and they know that’s it’s illegal for them to accept donations that violate the limits. So they specifically ask for the name and address of person making the donation.

So, just “sharing an account” explains nothing about what happened here. The donations were made directly to several campaigns and through Act Blue — in otherwords, to different organizations. Each one would have asked for the name and address of the donor.

To get to “oversight” as an explanation, someone has to forget both the church’s neutrality rules and mistakenly state that Dieter was the donor when he wasn’t. I’m a big fan of Hanlon’s Razor, so perhaps Mrs. Utchdorf misremembered that the policy applies only to the FP and used her husband’s name because she’s from an era where the husband’s name was used for all financial transactions. And maybe Dieter wasn’t paying close attention to his family finances during election season. But when I try to persuade myself that “oversight” is an honest and accurate description of what happened, I can feel Hanlon giving the side eye.

I don’t really care about whether and how the church acts with respect to its own rules: not my circus; not my monkeys. But I do hope the FEC does or did it’s due diligence to make sure this was squeaky clean.

by the way: I also think the church’s prohibition against donations is neutrality theater. The church is not politically neutral, and there is no reason to pretend it is by preventing Dieter or his wife from exercising the same rights other American Citizens have.