Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

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Aristotle Smith
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Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Aristotle Smith »

The other day I was googling for the Neal A. Maxwell quote that was always used to justify the existence of FARMS. I couldn't remember if Neal A. Maxwell said that Mormons shouldn't "allow any more uncontested slamdunks" or not "allow any more uncontested layups" The following page told me it was the slamdunks version:

https://www.templestudy.com/2012/06/25/rise-fall-farms/

The article is actually pretty interesting and he chronicles the severe drop in output FARMS had in the last few years of its existence. Looking at the top graph, BYU could have made the case to replace Peterson just on the drop in output alone.

Anyway, what caught my attention was the name of the blog proprietor, Bryce Haymond. I remembered him vaguely from the days when I used to read the bloggernacle. If I remembered correctly, he started his blog "Temple Study" because the other group blogs in the bloggernacle weren't conservative enough for his liking. I did a little more clicking on his site and ended up at his new site:

https://www.thymindoman.com/

Looking at the site, it's neither conservative nor Mormon. Sure enough, it looks like at some point Bryce went from being too conservative for the bloggernacle to being detached from Mormonism. I did some more googling to try and see if more of his story was out there and then ended up here:

https://interpreterfoundation.org/author/bryce/

So it looks like Bryce was the guy who did the website for the Interpreter Foundation and did write some articles for Interpreter. I'd say that qualifies him as at least a minor league apologist.

I say all of this to in no way disparage Bryce, I hope he is doing well. However, it continues to shock me how many defenders of the LDS church eventually end up leaving it altogether.
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Aristotle Smith
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Aristotle Smith »

I was reading some of the comments at

https://www.templestudy.com/2012/06/25/ ... mment-6635

which was linked above. Bryce and RT were going back and forth in the comments . At one point Bryce is defending FARMS and says:
It’s not just my war, it’s ours. And we certainly have had our share of casualties, haven’t we? I’m deeply saddened by them, but that doesn’t mean we go home, for that would put more shame on them than to continue the fight they were a part of.
There's something deeply tragic about that because Bryce himself would become a casualty a few years down the road. Putting aside the people who owned the bully pulpits at FARMS (such as DCP, Gee, etc.) there does seem to be a lot of tragedy surrounding those who supported FARMS with good intentions, like Bryce. They were passionate and threw everything in to fighting a war they couldn't possibly win, being led by people who had no idea what they were doing.
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Dr Exiled »

I think sometimes those who seem to be the most ardent defenders are the ones with the most questions. They are attracted to FAIR and other orgs because of their questions. They defend perhaps trying to see what the responses are and if there are real answers or if their positions are weak. Then something clicks and they realize it's made up and they leave.
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by IHAQ »

Aristotle Smith wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:03 am
I was reading some of the comments at

https://www.templestudy.com/2012/06/25/ ... mment-6635

which was linked above. Bryce and RT were going back and forth in the comments . At one point Bryce is defending FARMS and says:
It’s not just my war, it’s ours. And we certainly have had our share of casualties, haven’t we? I’m deeply saddened by them, but that doesn’t mean we go home, for that would put more shame on them than to continue the fight they were a part of.
There's something deeply tragic about that because Bryce himself would become a casualty a few years down the road. Putting aside the people who owned the bully pulpits at FARMS (such as DCP, Gee, etc.) there does seem to be a lot of tragedy surrounding those who supported FARMS with good intentions, like Bryce. They were passionate and threw everything in to fighting a war they couldn't possibly win, being led by people who had no idea what they were doing.
And, as they found to their cost, the ammunition they were given was found to be faulty.
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Physics Guy »

I've grumbled a bit about ex-Mormons who become keen to dismiss all forms of religion in the world as entirely bogus even when they really only know Mormonism, but this guy irks me more by apparently claiming to encompass all forms of religion in the world. He may have abandoned traditional Mormonism but he still seems to have the arrogance of a priesthood holder and an inflated sense of how big a deal Mormonism is among world religions. Instead of telling all the world's Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists that he knows their beliefs are all nonsense, he's telling them all that he knows better than they do what their beliefs really mean.

I guess it's pretty good consolation for losing one's hope in Mormon Exaltation to become an awesomely enlightened dude like that. And it looks as though he's figuring on keeping the deification part of Mormonism anyway, too. So he's doing all right.

The good old Angel Moroni gets equal screen area in his banner image with Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism (I think), Judaism (the right-most image is the Wailing Wall) ... and one other thing that I can't identify. What's that little strip of some kind of building, the fourth panel from the left?
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Aristotle Smith »

Physics Guy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:21 am
I've grumbled a bit about ex-Mormons who become keen to dismiss all forms of religion in the world as entirely bogus even when they really only know Mormonism, but this guy irks me more by apparently claiming to encompass all forms of religion in the world. He may have abandoned traditional Mormonism but he still seems to have the arrogance of a priesthood holder and an inflated sense of how big a deal Mormonism is among world religions. Instead of telling all the world's Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists that he knows their beliefs are all nonsense, he's telling them all that he knows better than they do what their beliefs really mean.
A lot of people who "leave" Mormonism maintain a lot of the assumptions of Mormonism. They remove the "LDS church is true" part of the web of beliefs they have, but the rest of the web stays in place. The hole left by removing "the church is true" is filled in in various ad hoc and unexamined ways. I think this is the case with Haymond.

Haymond was a major fan of Hugh Nibley. Nibley's MO was to raid gnosticism, hermeticism, paganism, ancient history, early Christianity, early Judaism or whatever for anything that could be used to defend the LDS church or at the very least situate Mormonism inside a broader culture. Take away the "LDS church is true" aspect of it and you basically get what Haymond is now doing: raiding everything for truth, enlightenment or whatever. He left the LDS church but he didn't leave Nibley.
Physics Guy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:21 am
The good old Angel Moroni gets equal screen area in his banner image with Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism (I think), Judaism (the right-most image is the Wailing Wall) ... and one other thing that I can't identify. What's that little strip of some kind of building, the fourth panel from the left?
Given that he seems to want to cover all the religious bases, my guess is that it's a Shinto shrine of some kind.
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Kishkumen »

Bryce identifies himself as a mystic these days, or someone who is pursuing mysticism at any rate. He is a decent fellow, and I think he generally respects other religious points of view. I understand the perennial and mystical views of religion can be annoying to some and that there is a problem of failing to appreciate the differences as people try to bring together all of what they view to be the best in other traditions. That said, I see Bryce as being a pretty decent and chill fellow who generally has an open mind. Not everything he says is exactly to my taste, to be sure, but I see a lot of admirable qualities in him.
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Physics Guy wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:21 am
... and one other thing that I can't identify. What's that little strip of some kind of building, the fourth panel from the left?
I asked a buddy who is a dedicated DM lurker to ask him for me what that is - this is Bryce's response:
That is a photo of modern architecture, to represent secularism or non-traditionalism, perhaps spiritual but not religious. I can't remember off the top of my head what building it is. I think it is a museum, but I would have to look at my files again to know for sure.
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Clinton King commenting on SeN: "My (perhaps) uncommon personal opinion: I find it easier to doubt the accuracy of carbon dating than the historicity of the Book of Abraham narrative." Good, Lord.
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Lem »

I've grumbled a bit about ex-Mormons who become keen to dismiss all forms of religion in the world as entirely bogus even when they really only know Mormonism, but this guy irks me more by apparently claiming to encompass all forms of religion in the world. He may have abandoned traditional Mormonism but he still seems to have the arrogance of a priesthood holder and an inflated sense of how big a deal Mormonism is among world religions. Instead of telling all the world's Christians and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists that he knows their beliefs are all nonsense, he's telling them all that he knows better than they do what their beliefs really mean.
I’ve noticed that a bit about your comments on ex-Mormons becoming atheist, thanks for the explanation. One can leave Mormonism but the Mormonism remains internalized, in the sense that it’s the Mormon god who is supreme!! I certainly have no argument there, for some ex-Mormons.

On the other hand, I don’t think concluding one is atheist requires an exmormon to first explore all other religions, anymore than we expect that of every other atheist. I do agree it requires a fair amount of seeing the world without the Mormon overlay, if that’s what you were indoctrinated into, much like a cult. I feel that really takes some deprogramming, so in that sense maybe it’s more the instant rejection of all things religious you find a bit disconcerting. With that, I tend to agree. To that end, i wonder how long the atheistic conclusion takes? For me, it was more than a decade after leaving the lds religion. For my non-lds child, it was 9 full years of Catholic school. On the other hand, another child, after the same 9 years with their sibling in the same school, is fully theistic in their beliefs, as is their father, a life-long Catholic. Three of my husband’s 9 siblings are atheist, as are two of mine, even though all of my siblings and in-law siblings were raised in fully religious settings. It really is an individual thing.
I guess it's pretty good consolation for losing one's hope in Mormon Exaltation to become an awesomely enlightened dude like that. And it looks as though he's figuring on keeping the deification part of Mormonism anyway, too. So he's doing all right.

The good old Angel Moroni gets equal screen area in his banner image with Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism (I think), Judaism (the right-most image is the Wailing Wall) ... and one other thing that I can't identify. What's that little strip of some kind of building, the fourth panel from the left?
Wow, Angel Moroni? With or without the trumpet? The new lds symbol is The Christus, iirc, he’s definitely staying old school. (Unless it’s just an old site.)
Last edited by Lem on Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Physics Guy »

I have no criticism of anyone who, like Asimov, at some point loses interest in the God hypothesis to the point where they think and act as though they were certain that God did not exist, even though they may not actually be that certain. This was Asimov's explanation of why he called himself an atheist rather than an agnostic and it seems reasonable to me. I don't consider that one has to explore all possible religions in detail before reaching that point. Just how much effort one should invest in the God hypothesis before giving up on it is everyone's own decision to make.

And I can certainly understand people deciding that certain particular religions that they know are stupid, or dishonest, or malicious, or any other bad thing. Ex-Scientologists are pretty harsh about Scientology and I reckon they have a good point. Ex-anythings can be as angry as they like about the anything they have left after knowing it well, and I'm just going to figure they probably know what they're talking about.

I don't understand how anyone can actually be certain that God doesn't exist, though, any more than I can understand anyone really being certain that God does exist. And in the same way I also don't understand how anyone can really have sufficient grounds to know that all religions in general are obviously stupid or dishonest or malicious. Even if they're all wrong, plenty of brilliant ideas have been wrong and plenty of noble goals have been misguided.

So I still figure it's reasonable enough to say that one has no interest in pursuing any of the world's religions, even if one doesn't know much about them, but in my books it's arrogant to assert that things that billions of people believe and hold dear are all obviously stupid or wicked. One doesn't have to respect other beliefs per se, but I think there is an obligation to respect other human beings enough, when there is doubt because one does not personally know all about their religions, to give them the benefit of that doubt and allow that they might have some kind of decent reasons, from their own points of view, for thinking as they do.

Breezy, broad-brush scorn for "religion" as a general thing just sounds to me like the same know-it-all arrogance that keeps fanatics preaching and preening on their soapboxes. Or else it's the same fear of being wrong oneself that makes one shout about how wrong everyone else must certainly be.

It bugs me, like hearing someone sing a song, to the tune of Yankee Doodle, about how much they hate the tune of Yankee Doodle.
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