Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

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Philo Sofee
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Philo Sofee »

Lem
Thanks for writing about this Philo, I don't study this area as much as I probably should, so I always enjoy peeking in on your studies when you post. Your comment about Protestantism and meaning in scripture is fascinating food for thought. It also puts the near-constant mopologetic search for new and more parallelisms in an interesting light.
I thought one of the better informed apologists was John Tvedtnes. His Hebrew was excellent, his knowledge of Jewish thought was extensive, and he explored many areas between Mormonism and Judaism. Yes, he was coerced to make sure Mormonism always remained on top and the most interesting and correct and doctrinally accurate, etc., but in my view, and this has now become a bias of mine, since I am really studying Hebrew/Judaism must more completely now than I ever have, in my view, a better approach overall is to combine the Jewish spirituality with the Mormon one under the rubric of all Israel, not just this tribe or that. And maybe I am being quite naive (wouldn't surprise me in the least), but this approach would actually interest far more than turn them off. A good solid analysis of the Tribe of Judah (forget the stupid thinking of converting now, gads those days are SO over, it's time to understand and build bridges and brotherhood already - hell I didn't even need a revelation from Jesus to state that truth) and their view of scripture, and USING them, alongside with Mormons' views and use of scriptures, integrating them together like a zipper does two sides of a jacket - well, that could be seriously enlightening, spiritually uplifting, and intellectually enlarging and very fun to do. It would be simply over the top SENSATIONAL to begin inviting Jewish leaders to speak to Mormons in the sacrament meetings, and to have them teach Mormons Hebrew in Sunday Schools. DAMN! ***I would GO BACK to church for that!***

Why on earth is this not happening at all?! All today's idiots do is sit their dead dumb asses on piles of money instead of piles of learning and knowledge. Joseph Smith gave them the key of studying biblical languages himself. Packer is dead already, good gawd move forward already will ya?! Open up, expand, say something significant for once that actually is exciting. Time to come back to life!
Themis
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Themis »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:44 pm
Yeah, knowing the mind of God or being able to figure out the truth hidden in Holy Writ, all of those things are tricking enterprises. If we were able to get down into the philosophical minutiae of it, I don't think it would bear much of a resemblance to knowing what God thinks beyond the realm of handy metaphor. You seem to read these metaphors as being a lot more literal and active than I do. I have a much more Platonic take on the whole thing. We are probably doomed to talk past each other on this one.
Of course it is also more complicated, and some are interested in that, while others the basics. It still supports what I have been saying about interest in God, what that means, and how it relates to people lives and how they should live their life. Unfortunately both lack foundation even if one goes to great lengths in thought, reason and logic.
Most Christians belong to organizations that rest on creeds that are succinct distillations of classical theism. What they really understand about that is something else entirely. A few people really get into the mysteries of the Trinity and so forth. Those few are probably closer to the core of the religion.

I am not sure what thinking one is better has to do with anything we are talking about.
They both have similar interests that the atheist lacks. That doesn't necessarily make one of them wrong, but the atheist has at least one less interest to think about, which is the basic point I made.
Sure. If that is something you view to be a benefit of atheism, then that would be an inducement for you to be an atheist. I still say that it is possible not to imagine God as being some kind of obsessively punitive voyeur who is preoccupied with monitoring your little factory usage.
My point was never to say one was better, but that one has one less interest to think about. It may also be easier for the atheist in that they don't have to figure out what a unknowable entity wants us to believe or how we should live our life. The atheist could still be wrong. As an agnostic I am in the same boat as the atheist since I doubt I would be able to figure it out, so why bother, unless I am offered good evidence. And sure, maybe some theists think they can never know, but the history of theism is full of claiming God as being punitive. I suppose if I were to be more theistic I wouldn't go for the punitive God.
Themis
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Themis »

Lem wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:02 pm
You illustrate how disconcerting this example was to me. Overall, if you are feeding a kid, the spinach and broccoli rank way higher in 'goodness.' Adding a less good thing that in the short run is far preferred but in the long run is less 'good' is a weird way to introduce god into a discussion. So god is ice cream, a quickie solution that in the long run ultimately doesn't satisfy, but one that is easier to choose in favor of rejecting what would be better for you? exhausted parents may let this happen on occasion, because parents aren't gods, but overall I can't imagine any responsible parent going for this as a long term solution.

Clearly I am reading too much into this.
To put a new twist on this, it is common for parents to offer things like Ice cream if they eat their vegetables.
Lem
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Lem »

Themis wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:30 pm
Lem wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:02 pm
You illustrate how disconcerting this example was to me. Overall, if you are feeding a kid, the spinach and broccoli rank way higher in 'goodness.' Adding a less good thing that in the short run is far preferred but in the long run is less 'good' is a weird way to introduce god into a discussion. So god is ice cream, a quickie solution that in the long run ultimately doesn't satisfy, but one that is easier to choose in favor of rejecting what would be better for you? exhausted parents may let this happen on occasion, because parents aren't gods, but overall I can't imagine any responsible parent going for this as a long term solution.

Clearly I am reading too much into this.
To put a new twist on this, it is common for parents to offer things like Ice cream if they eat their vegetables.
:lol: hence my reference to exhausted parents. (Speaking of, have you seen Martin Freeman's series, Breeders? so very funny, but it hits hard on imperfect human's attempts at parenting)
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Kishkumen
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Kishkumen »

Themis wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:28 pm
My point was never to say one was better, but that one has one less interest to think about. It may also be easier for the atheist in that they don't have to figure out what a unknowable entity wants us to believe or how we should live our life. The atheist could still be wrong. As an agnostic I am in the same boat as the atheist since I doubt I would be able to figure it out, so why bother, unless I am offered good evidence. And sure, maybe some theists think they can never know, but the history of theism is full of claiming God as being punitive. I suppose if I were to be more theistic I wouldn't go for the punitive God.
Then you are arguing that one is better, actually. In any case, my point, although I wandered from it, is that ideally atheism should be even more intellectually demanding than theism, but in practice that is often not the case. People often see not worrying about God as a big relief, but I believe Nietzsche showed this was a mirage if not a catastrophe. We are living in that catastrophe.
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Lem
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Lem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:17 pm
Lem
Thanks for writing about this Philo, I don't study this area as much as I probably should, so I always enjoy peeking in on your studies when you post. Your comment about Protestantism and meaning in scripture is fascinating food for thought. It also puts the near-constant mopologetic search for new and more parallelisms in an interesting light.
I thought one of the better informed apologists was John Tvedtnes. His Hebrew was excellent, his knowledge of Jewish thought was extensive, and he explored many areas between Mormonism and Judaism. Yes, he was coerced to make sure Mormonism always remained on top and the most interesting and correct and doctrinally accurate, etc., but in my view, and this has now become a bias of mine, since I am really studying Hebrew/Judaism must more completely now than I ever have, in my view, a better approach overall is to combine the Jewish spirituality with the Mormon one under the rubric of all Israel, not just this tribe or that. And maybe I am being quite naive (wouldn't surprise me in the least), but this approach would actually interest far more than turn them off. A good solid analysis of the Tribe of Judah (forget the stupid thinking of converting now, gads those days are SO over, it's time to understand and build bridges and brotherhood already - hell I didn't even need a revelation from Jesus to state that truth) and their view of scripture, and USING them, alongside with Mormons' views and use of scriptures, integrating them together like a zipper does two sides of a jacket - well, that could be seriously enlightening, spiritually uplifting, and intellectually enlarging and very fun to do. It would be simply over the top SENSATIONAL to begin inviting Jewish leaders to speak to Mormons in the sacrament meetings, and to have them teach Mormons Hebrew in Sunday Schools. DAMN! ***I would GO BACK to church for that!***

Why on earth is this not happening at all?! All today's idiots do is sit their dead dumb asses on piles of money instead of piles of learning and knowledge. Joseph Smith gave them the key of studying biblical languages himself. Packer is dead already, good gawd move forward already will ya?! Open up, expand, say something significant for once that actually is exciting. Time to come back to life!
I think ultimately it goes back to Mormons backing themselves into a corner saying "we are the only one true..." etc. etc...

But I really like your "time to come back to life!" sentiment. When I was in grad school, sitting with my friends discussing politics and current events, one lesson I learned very very quickly is how young and naïve Americans were. Our histories are nothing compared to my friends' ancestral homes. I see the same with Mormonism, very much the new kid on the block, arrogant and knowing everything, but in the end, there is so much more to learn, if one is willing.
"choosing to work the job she loved and elevated to the end." -honorentheos
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Moksha
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Moksha »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:17 pm
And maybe I am being quite naive (wouldn't surprise me in the least), but this approach would actually interest far more than turn them off. A good solid analysis of the Tribe of Judah (forget the stupid thinking of converting now, gads those days are SO over, it's time to understand and build bridges and brotherhood already - hell I didn't even need a revelation from Jesus to state that truth) and their view of scripture, and USING them, alongside with Mormons' views and use of scriptures, integrating them together like a zipper does two sides of a jacket - ...
It would be fun to hear the Brethren talk about the Passover and how bitter herbs helps confirm the truth of Joseph Smith during GenCon 193.
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Philo Sofee
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Philo Sofee »

Moksha wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:45 pm
Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:17 pm
And maybe I am being quite naive (wouldn't surprise me in the least), but this approach would actually interest far more than turn them off. A good solid analysis of the Tribe of Judah (forget the stupid thinking of converting now, gads those days are SO over, it's time to understand and build bridges and brotherhood already - hell I didn't even need a revelation from Jesus to state that truth) and their view of scripture, and USING them, alongside with Mormons' views and use of scriptures, integrating them together like a zipper does two sides of a jacket - ...
It would be fun to hear the Brethren talk about the Passover and how bitter herbs helps confirm the truth of Joseph Smith during GenCon 193.
It would. They would probably just stupidly say something lame like they would be against the Word of Wisdom or some dross like that..... :roll:
Philo Sofee
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Philo Sofee »

Lem
But I really like your "time to come back to life!" sentiment. When I was in grad school, sitting with my friends discussing politics and current events, one lesson I learned very very quickly is how young and naïve Americans were. Our histories are nothing compared to my friends' ancestral homes. I see the same with Mormonism, very much the new kid on the block, arrogant and knowing everything, but in the end, there is so much more to learn, if one is willing.
Right?
I am willing, my problem is I don't have a lot of time left in life to explore options I would love to in any kind of detail, so I am going to have to focus on the Jewish one for now, in part because of their astonishing publishing of so much vast fascinating materials they never would before this time. That says something to me man! And.....AND, the bonus is, its pretty doggone fascinating stuff! And that is in relation to history, religion, culture, and spirituality, involving also languages, geometry, science, and so on and so forth. I mean holy cow, it opens up an entirely new dimension of immense proportion so far as I can see. Ayiyi......I do wish I was 14 again and knew all this back then (I couldn't have the Zohar was unavailable, but hey I can dream!)
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Aristotle Smith
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Re: Another Mopologist Bites The Dust, Bryce Haymond Edition

Post by Aristotle Smith »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:20 pm
Then you are arguing that one is better, actually. In any case, my point, although I wandered from it, is that ideally atheism should be even more intellectually demanding than theism, but in practice that is often not the case. People often see not worrying about God as a big relief, but I believe Nietzsche showed this was a mirage if not a catastrophe. We are living in that catastrophe.
I have had similar thoughts. After losing my faith in Mormonism, I guess I could best be classified as an agnostic at that point. I don't recall how long it lasted, no more than a few months. If I remember, I randomly ended up listening to some lectures on/about Nietzsche. I had read several of Nietzsche's books as a believing Mormon. I never really knew what to do with them intellectually, but I hadn't read any lately.

So, I pulled down my copy of the Genealogy of Morals off the shelf and read it. This time was so different. This guy was someone that demanded an answer, either get on board with his transvaluation of all values or run the other direction. In truth Nietzsche would have said the latter option was a cop out, an attempt to act in bad faith and pretend modernity never happened. While I ultimately disagree vehemently with him, I'm hard pressed to think of a more honest thinker.
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