Some Observations About European and Mormon Clots
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simon southerton
- Sunbeam
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- Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:15 pm
Some Observations About European and Mormon Clots
When the pandemic started, I was full of praise for Utah’s response. The state had one of the highest rates of testing for the virus, which helped local health authorities get on top of the spread. As a direct consequence, Utah had one of the lowest case and death rates in the country. Nowhere near as good as New Zealand and Australia, but still good.
But then things started to go off the rails. Elder Bednar had a whine about religious freedom and restrictions on gathering, the mask debaters got a hold of things, and the prophet, who knows better, failed to provide true leadership. Case numbers soon went crazy, and deaths soon followed.
It now appears that Utah is on track to becoming a national embarrassment as the US tries desperately to escape the pandemic. Almost 50% of men who voted for Trump (and many women) are refusing to get vaccinated, and there’s a lot of those folk in Utah. Utah is also the global headquarters of the wellness industry, which is infested with antivaxxers.
The signs are already starting to appear in the data. While Utah was quick out of the blocks with testing, the state is falling behind in COVID vaccination rates, and this is likely to get worse as the state runs out of willing volunteers. As pressure mounts, in the coming weeks, we are going to see all sorts of excuses for why people are not going to get vaccinated.
In Facebook communities linked to Mormons I am hearing people claim the vaccine causes blood clots. This is most likely linked to media stories in Europe. Several European countries recently paused the use of the AstraZeneca vaccine because of a scare about blood clots. A journo read somewhere that after 20-40 million shots of the vaccine there were 37 cases of blood clots and four fatalities. As a result, politicians in a heap of European countries paused the use of the vaccine while they consulted medical experts.
To their credit, the Australian and New Zealand governments trusted their medical experts, who were already familiar with the data. They had identified no link between the AstraZeneca vaccine and blood clots, so use of the vaccine continued. European health authorities also found no link and the vaccine rollout resumed. We will never know how many lives were lost because of this delay in vaccinations, but it is likely to be in the thousands.
The problem health scientists face all the time is that it is impossible to prove a negative; that the vaccine does not cause any number of medical issues. But that does not make the vaccine any less safe. The best scientists can do is compare the incidence of illnesses in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.
Unfortunately, living is risky, and people get sick and die every day. I just looked at Australia’s rates of disease and death and calculated the daily incidences. For every million Australians, about 16 will die tomorrow. For the lucky ones who survive, this is what the next 24 hours has in store.
𝟭 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗮 𝗵𝗲𝗮𝗿𝘁 𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗮𝗰𝗸,
𝟮 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗯𝗹𝗼𝗼𝗱 𝗰𝗹𝗼𝘁𝘀,
𝟰 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗮 𝘀𝘁𝗿𝗼𝗸𝗲 𝗮𝗻𝗱
𝟭𝟲 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗯𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗮𝗴𝗻𝗼𝘀𝗲𝗱 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗰𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲𝗿.
In 72 hours, the numbers just triple. So, the observation that 41 people had blood clots after 40 million inoculations (about 1 per million) looks far less alarming, when you consider the incidence in the Australian population is 2 per million. The data for the US will be in the same ballpark.
There is currently no evidence the vaccine causes clots and there is no clear scientific reason to believe the components in the vaccine could lead to someone getting clots, having a heart attack or stroke or getting cancer. While looking at Australia's death data, another factoid that lept out at me was the 70% decline in the standardised death rate during the last century. Most of that decline was due to vaccines.
All medical procedures carry a risk, but with vaccines the risk is infinitesimally small compared to the huge benefits. The biggest risk is anaphylactic shock immediately after the injection, which occurs in about 1 to 5 individuals per million. But all health professionals administering the vaccine are aware of this risk and have on hand the necessary drugs to treat this problem. Interestingly, the greatest risk of injury from the smallpox vaccine was incorrect placement of the needle into the shoulder joint, causing inflammation.
𝗕𝘂𝘁 𝘄𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘄𝗲 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗽𝗹𝗲𝗻𝘁𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝗙𝗔𝗖𝗧𝗦 𝗮𝗯𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗯𝗲𝗻𝗲𝗳𝗶𝘁𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘃𝗮𝗰𝗰𝗶𝗻𝗲. For every million people vaccinated, roughly 30,000 lives will be saved and many more will be spared the lingering injuries the disease is known to cause. It can be very frustrating when negative anecdotal reports get so much attention, because they pull at the heartstrings, when the positive scientific data is overwhelming.
I am now beginning to hear Facebook Mormons say it is their personal choice not to get vaccinated and that people should respect that. But unless you have a medical condition, that puts you at significant risk, if you choose not to get vaccinated, you are helping to prolong the pandemic and directly contributing to death and illness in your community. That’s about as unchristian as it gets.
At the same time these people are enforcing their personal liberties, they are reducing the rights of others through increased public health costs, restrictive public health regulations, and allowing an infection reservoir to exist where new strains can emerge.
Where Utah goes in the next few months is very much in the hands of one man. Will he have the courage to do what is right? After the uproar over the Friend endorsing vaccination, I doubt it.
But then things started to go off the rails. Elder Bednar had a whine about religious freedom and restrictions on gathering, the mask debaters got a hold of things, and the prophet, who knows better, failed to provide true leadership. Case numbers soon went crazy, and deaths soon followed.
It now appears that Utah is on track to becoming a national embarrassment as the US tries desperately to escape the pandemic. Almost 50% of men who voted for Trump (and many women) are refusing to get vaccinated, and there’s a lot of those folk in Utah. Utah is also the global headquarters of the wellness industry, which is infested with antivaxxers.
The signs are already starting to appear in the data. While Utah was quick out of the blocks with testing, the state is falling behind in COVID vaccination rates, and this is likely to get worse as the state runs out of willing volunteers. As pressure mounts, in the coming weeks, we are going to see all sorts of excuses for why people are not going to get vaccinated.
In Facebook communities linked to Mormons I am hearing people claim the vaccine causes blood clots. This is most likely linked to media stories in Europe. Several European countries recently paused the use of the AstraZeneca vaccine because of a scare about blood clots. A journo read somewhere that after 20-40 million shots of the vaccine there were 37 cases of blood clots and four fatalities. As a result, politicians in a heap of European countries paused the use of the vaccine while they consulted medical experts.
To their credit, the Australian and New Zealand governments trusted their medical experts, who were already familiar with the data. They had identified no link between the AstraZeneca vaccine and blood clots, so use of the vaccine continued. European health authorities also found no link and the vaccine rollout resumed. We will never know how many lives were lost because of this delay in vaccinations, but it is likely to be in the thousands.
The problem health scientists face all the time is that it is impossible to prove a negative; that the vaccine does not cause any number of medical issues. But that does not make the vaccine any less safe. The best scientists can do is compare the incidence of illnesses in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.
Unfortunately, living is risky, and people get sick and die every day. I just looked at Australia’s rates of disease and death and calculated the daily incidences. For every million Australians, about 16 will die tomorrow. For the lucky ones who survive, this is what the next 24 hours has in store.
𝟭 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗮 𝗵𝗲𝗮𝗿𝘁 𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗮𝗰𝗸,
𝟮 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗯𝗹𝗼𝗼𝗱 𝗰𝗹𝗼𝘁𝘀,
𝟰 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗮 𝘀𝘁𝗿𝗼𝗸𝗲 𝗮𝗻𝗱
𝟭𝟲 𝘄𝗶𝗹𝗹 𝗯𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝗮𝗴𝗻𝗼𝘀𝗲𝗱 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗰𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲𝗿.
In 72 hours, the numbers just triple. So, the observation that 41 people had blood clots after 40 million inoculations (about 1 per million) looks far less alarming, when you consider the incidence in the Australian population is 2 per million. The data for the US will be in the same ballpark.
There is currently no evidence the vaccine causes clots and there is no clear scientific reason to believe the components in the vaccine could lead to someone getting clots, having a heart attack or stroke or getting cancer. While looking at Australia's death data, another factoid that lept out at me was the 70% decline in the standardised death rate during the last century. Most of that decline was due to vaccines.
All medical procedures carry a risk, but with vaccines the risk is infinitesimally small compared to the huge benefits. The biggest risk is anaphylactic shock immediately after the injection, which occurs in about 1 to 5 individuals per million. But all health professionals administering the vaccine are aware of this risk and have on hand the necessary drugs to treat this problem. Interestingly, the greatest risk of injury from the smallpox vaccine was incorrect placement of the needle into the shoulder joint, causing inflammation.
𝗕𝘂𝘁 𝘄𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘄𝗲 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗽𝗹𝗲𝗻𝘁𝘆 𝗼𝗳 𝗙𝗔𝗖𝗧𝗦 𝗮𝗯𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝗮𝗿𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗯𝗲𝗻𝗲𝗳𝗶𝘁𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘃𝗮𝗰𝗰𝗶𝗻𝗲. For every million people vaccinated, roughly 30,000 lives will be saved and many more will be spared the lingering injuries the disease is known to cause. It can be very frustrating when negative anecdotal reports get so much attention, because they pull at the heartstrings, when the positive scientific data is overwhelming.
I am now beginning to hear Facebook Mormons say it is their personal choice not to get vaccinated and that people should respect that. But unless you have a medical condition, that puts you at significant risk, if you choose not to get vaccinated, you are helping to prolong the pandemic and directly contributing to death and illness in your community. That’s about as unchristian as it gets.
At the same time these people are enforcing their personal liberties, they are reducing the rights of others through increased public health costs, restrictive public health regulations, and allowing an infection reservoir to exist where new strains can emerge.
Where Utah goes in the next few months is very much in the hands of one man. Will he have the courage to do what is right? After the uproar over the Friend endorsing vaccination, I doubt it.
Re: Some Observations About European and Mormon Clots
The clotting is a nonissue in the US, as the Oxford vaccine isn’t being used here.
Your larger point is spot on. Not everyone can be vaccinated and the vaccine is not 100% effective. That’s why herd immunity is so important. It’s ironic that many of the same people who promoted herd immunity as a strategy refuse to be vaccinated, which we need to get to herd immunity.
One sentence from the prophet would save lives and suffering.
Your larger point is spot on. Not everyone can be vaccinated and the vaccine is not 100% effective. That’s why herd immunity is so important. It’s ironic that many of the same people who promoted herd immunity as a strategy refuse to be vaccinated, which we need to get to herd immunity.
One sentence from the prophet would save lives and suffering.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
Re: Some Observations About European and Mormon Clots
Lets hope with the coming conference they take a stand. I'm hoping also most schools and many businesses and such will require vaccinations. Not sure about vaccine passports, but they would have an impact on many who want to travel.
Re: Some Observations About European and Mormon Clots
Thanks for calling attention to this issue, Simon. The graphic shown in the OP shows vaccination rates state by state. A more telling visualization would be county by county rates. Such visualizations make clearer the effects of economics, education, and politics on vaccination rates. In Florida, there appears to be a positive correlation between county median household income and vaccination rates for those eligible.
- At the high end of annual household income ($82K median income), the vaccination rate is 79% for those over 65 and otherwise eligible.
- At the other extreme ($35K median income), the vaccination rate is 34% for over 65 and otherwise eligible.
- Near the middle, the county with the largest population in the State is ranked 33 of 69 counties in terms of a median income ($51.3K), and has a current vaccination rate of 51.3%.
While acknowledging that a number of other demographic and socioeconomic factors may influence vaccination rates, any kind of rank order statistical test on these data would show a significant correlation between income and vaccination rates (to date).
As to average educational attainment, as determined by percent of the adult population with a college degree, the range is from 54% (79% vaccination rate) down to 13% (34% vaccination rate) for the two counties at the extremes.
Regarding political alignment, I'm sad to announce that only 12 of the 69 counties in the State of Florida voted Democratic in the 2020 election. All but one were the more populous counties in which the larger cities are located, and one had a smaller college town.
All 12 of these counties have vaccination rates above the mean for the State. (By popular vote, the State went for Trump by 51.2% to 49.7%.)
Florida has a population of 21 million. It has recorded just over 2 million cases of Covid-19, resulting in some 38,000 deaths.
Contrast this to Australia, with a population of 25 million, 29,000 Covid-19 cases and about 900 deaths, and one can see the disastrous consequences of Trump's Covid-19 lies and denial - in his own home state.
Estimates are that cases of symptomatic Covid-19, not requiring hospitalization, could confer a level of immunity that may be adequate for herd immunity for a period of six months to a year. (The hospitals I am familiar with require staff who have had Covid-19 to be vaccinated within six months of onset of symptoms).
If vaccinations here continue at the current pace and demographic distribution, it is likely that Florida will end up with metropolitan areas of herd immunity (> 75% vaccinated or otherwise immune* ). Because of Florida's generally aging population, some areas with higher population densities areas could get to ~90%. Unfortunately, for political, economic or religious reason, other more rural areas are likely to remain well below herd immunity vaccination rates.
Then there are Miami and Fort Lauderdale, the economies of which depend to a greater extent on tourism, and which will continue to see large influxes of tourists from other jurisdictions that represent a lower percentage of immunity than found in the local population.
Looks to me as if Covid-19 will be with us here in the Trump-infected South of the US, as well as in more rural and economically disadvantaged area elsewhere in the US, for a long time to come. In the longer term, it will eventually tend to injure and kill mainly those who chose not to be vaccinated.
Over the long haul, a disproportionate number of Covid-19 deaths will be Republicans, especially the far right and Evangelicals.
___________________
* Vaccination rates for achieving herd immunity vary depending on the infectivity of the pathogen. For measles it is 95%, while for polio is is around 80%. Estimates for vaccination rates needed to achieve herd immunity for the Covid-19 pathogen (SARS-CoV-2) are in the neighborhood of 75%.
- At the high end of annual household income ($82K median income), the vaccination rate is 79% for those over 65 and otherwise eligible.
- At the other extreme ($35K median income), the vaccination rate is 34% for over 65 and otherwise eligible.
- Near the middle, the county with the largest population in the State is ranked 33 of 69 counties in terms of a median income ($51.3K), and has a current vaccination rate of 51.3%.
While acknowledging that a number of other demographic and socioeconomic factors may influence vaccination rates, any kind of rank order statistical test on these data would show a significant correlation between income and vaccination rates (to date).
As to average educational attainment, as determined by percent of the adult population with a college degree, the range is from 54% (79% vaccination rate) down to 13% (34% vaccination rate) for the two counties at the extremes.
Regarding political alignment, I'm sad to announce that only 12 of the 69 counties in the State of Florida voted Democratic in the 2020 election. All but one were the more populous counties in which the larger cities are located, and one had a smaller college town.
All 12 of these counties have vaccination rates above the mean for the State. (By popular vote, the State went for Trump by 51.2% to 49.7%.)
Florida has a population of 21 million. It has recorded just over 2 million cases of Covid-19, resulting in some 38,000 deaths.
Contrast this to Australia, with a population of 25 million, 29,000 Covid-19 cases and about 900 deaths, and one can see the disastrous consequences of Trump's Covid-19 lies and denial - in his own home state.
Estimates are that cases of symptomatic Covid-19, not requiring hospitalization, could confer a level of immunity that may be adequate for herd immunity for a period of six months to a year. (The hospitals I am familiar with require staff who have had Covid-19 to be vaccinated within six months of onset of symptoms).
If vaccinations here continue at the current pace and demographic distribution, it is likely that Florida will end up with metropolitan areas of herd immunity (> 75% vaccinated or otherwise immune* ). Because of Florida's generally aging population, some areas with higher population densities areas could get to ~90%. Unfortunately, for political, economic or religious reason, other more rural areas are likely to remain well below herd immunity vaccination rates.
Then there are Miami and Fort Lauderdale, the economies of which depend to a greater extent on tourism, and which will continue to see large influxes of tourists from other jurisdictions that represent a lower percentage of immunity than found in the local population.
Looks to me as if Covid-19 will be with us here in the Trump-infected South of the US, as well as in more rural and economically disadvantaged area elsewhere in the US, for a long time to come. In the longer term, it will eventually tend to injure and kill mainly those who chose not to be vaccinated.
Over the long haul, a disproportionate number of Covid-19 deaths will be Republicans, especially the far right and Evangelicals.
___________________
* Vaccination rates for achieving herd immunity vary depending on the infectivity of the pathogen. For measles it is 95%, while for polio is is around 80%. Estimates for vaccination rates needed to achieve herd immunity for the Covid-19 pathogen (SARS-CoV-2) are in the neighborhood of 75%.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." (David Hume)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
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Meadowchik
- Priest
- Posts: 317
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Re: Some Observations About European and Mormon Clots
While I agree that, statistically (and practically), the observed clotting is not an issue on a population basis, the initial concern seemed to have been the rare and dangerous type of the clotting observed in the affected cases.Meadowchik wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:07 pmBut the mis/information about the clotting still remains an issue, being used as fuel for bad anti-vaxx arguments.
As pointed out in the OP, in terms of the prevalence of clotting in general, the number of cases observed for 20 million doses of the AZ vaccine is no higher than would be expected in an unvaccinated cohort.The EMA and WHO reviewed 18 cases of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) following administration of over 20 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine. "CVST is one of those low frequency, high morbidity conditions that attracts attention," said Rajiv Pruthi, MBBS, a hematologist at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." (David Hume)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
Re: Some Observations About European and Mormon Clots
Yes, it’s easy misinformation to correct.Meadowchik wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:07 pmBut the mis/information about the clotting still remains an issue, being used as fuel for bad anti-vaxx arguments.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
- Imwashingmypirate
- Prophet
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Re: Some Observations About European and Mormon Clots
I think given that the virus itself appears to cause blood clots in a lot of people and blood issues in general as well as certain blood types being more symptomatic it would be, in my opinion, quite logical for a vaccine to possibly have similar affects if it is the body's immune response that causes the blood issues rather than the virus itself.
But in saying that 30 out of millions of people is negligible. Female contraception carries a greater chance of getting blood clots. It is fear mongering that blows these things out of proportion.
But in saying that 30 out of millions of people is negligible. Female contraception carries a greater chance of getting blood clots. It is fear mongering that blows these things out of proportion.
- Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Some Observations About European and Mormon Clots
Simon Southerton is a goddamn treasure. Thanks for posting here and making us all a little more informed.
- Doc
- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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simon southerton
- Sunbeam
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- Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:15 pm
Re: Some Observations About European and Mormon Clots
Exactly. A couple of months ago my 92-year-old mother was planning to get vaccinated. When I spoke to her the other day she was wary because she thought the vaccine causes blood clots. The antivaxx crowd will use anything to further their cause. I have even heard a Qultist claim that, because Bill Gates is a eugenicist (he's not), the vaccine could harm the immune system and kill people in the future when they are faced with another illness. So the vaccine is saving people's lives now, so that it can kill them in a few years time. That's some seriously evil crap these vaccine scientists must be up to.Meadowchik wrote: ↑Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:07 pmBut the mis/information about the clotting still remains an issue, being used as fuel for bad anti-vaxx arguments.
What I find most frustrating is the lack of trust in medical experts. Each country has dozens of highly skilled experts who have been hand-picked to look at the data. We should trust them. Vaccination is an incredibly safe and well established technology. These expert panels were set up to ensure this and they have been incredibly successful.
Modern scientifically-based medicine was set up to liberate us from anecdotal claims of miracle cures and snake oil salesmen. Emotion was taken out of decision making and replaced with objective analysis of sound scientific data. These panels of experts were set up so that we didn't need to do our own research into the safety of vaccines, because hardly any of us are skilled enough to understand the scientific data.
Last edited by simon southerton on Mon Mar 29, 2021 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.