Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

[consiglieri]

The past is a foreign country …

[Dr Exiled]

Mopologist Rule 27:

When confronted with bad past information, create any diversion that will allow the believer to discount the valid information from the past.

Rule 28:

Claim presentism even if illogical.

Rule 28:

Claim the sources are unreliable.

Rule 30:

Claim a tie by raising doubts about the past. Who knows what really happened. We can't get into their heads.

Final solution:

Use the ad hominem if all else fails.

[DrW]

Fair Dinkum’s thread on the MD&D Board mentioned three instances of over-the-line embellishment for which Russell M. Nelson has been called to account. Bro. Dinkum’s thread is now up to nine pages and continues to provide great examples of magical thinking, willful ignorance, and denial of reality on the part of many posters there. Dr. Moore has just listed a set of rules at MD&D for the exercise of this delusional groupthink.

The fact checking of Russell M. Nelson’s "Doors of Death" story on this board provided much of the material for the RFM video, which video seems to be the source of consternation on Bro. Dinkum's thread over on the MD&D board. One assumes that MD&D members (e.g. Smac 97), who claim to be open minded to learning the truth, might venture over here for a quick look ("haram" as that may be). Research to find the facts, however, does not appear to be in the cards, at least not for folks like Helix.

Here is a link to the version of the Russell M. Nelson “Doors of Death” story that has been made into a faith promoting video by the LDS Church and appears to be referred to as the "true" version of events over at MD&D:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/ins ... 1?lang=eng

In an attempt to defend Russell M. Nelson against charges of embellishment and dishonesty, Helix poses the following question:

What is more likely?

(1) Nelson told the truth. Nelson experienced an in-flight engine fire. Nelson, whose scientific background trained him to observe and trust professionals, credits the pilot and watches carefully the procedure used for putting out an engine fire. Still, he and another passenger felt alarmed. The very short report in the 1970s neglected many details and only reported the engine was damaged. Not long after, Nelson repeated this story to large public audiences while acting in capacity as an apostle.

(2) Nelson deliberately lied. Nelson heard a pilot tell a step-by-step process how he or she dealt with an in-flight engine fire. Later, Nelson experienced a boring emergency landing with no steep descent or fire. Then Nelson maliciously took the other pilot's story of an engine fire, repurposed it into his own emergency landing incident, then repeated it to large public audiences while acting in capacity as an apostle, all while the other passenger and pilot are presumably still alive.

For the perpetual cynic, #2 is the easy choice.

For the rest of us, #1 is just fine.

Here is a link to that post: https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73 ... on/page/8/

The issue of which option (1 or 2) reflects reality never seems to come up in his thinking. Helix seems perfectly willing to assume that the CAB lied about there being no fire in the official report to protect a struggling airline (as Smac suggested) and that the trip unfolded pretty much as Russell M. Nelson stated.

Helix seems unbothered by the FAA finding, reported by the CAB, that Nelson's aircraft was capable of safely continuing on to St. George or returning to SLC, making it clear that there was no engine fire. Reality does not seem to matter to Helix, as long as he can be comfortable in his unfounded belief and feel that he is contributing to the comfort of his tribe on this issue.
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Elsewhere on Fair Dinkum’s thread, Smac 97 warned the posters there against what I’m about to do. I apologize to those offended in advance, but the type and shadow, of what Smac warned against is too obvious to ignore, especially today.

The type here is not Russell M. Nelson, it is Joseph Smith Jr., the 19th century conman that Russell M. Nelson represents and defends. And the shadow (fulfillment in the latter days), in the 21st century is Donald J. Trump, a criminal responsible for more deaths among Americans and damage to American democracy than any other man or woman, alive or dead.

History has clearly shown that Smith and Trump, were and are, world class conmen guilty of lying, adultery, fraud, and theft - pretending to be something they are not, and enabled by the unfounded believe (faith) that others placed in their words, even when their actions were contradictory to those words.

Using delusional rationalization, or doublethink at best, followers sustained them nonetheless. Fruits of this blind faith in the 19th century included the Kirkland Safety Society failure, and the Mountain Meadow Massacre, dozens of abandoned and shamed sexual conquests, and the death of Smith in a sordid jailhouse shootout. In the 21st century the fruits of unfounded belief, coupled with willful ignorance and delusional rationalization, included hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths from corona virus, insurrection, and the near dismantling of American democracy. No wonder Smac warned MD&D posters not to go there.
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In contrast to many of those on the MD&D Board, it seems clear from attendance records and other evidence (some of which can be found on this board) that the majority of Mormons (active and inactive) no longer believe the truth claims of Joseph Smith, nor do they agree with much of what the Church leadership says or does. They were raised as Mormons and many remain active or semi-active in the LDS Church for what they see as the community and cultural benefits - some of which are undeniable.

[Kishkumen]

You all have done some amazing work here. Wow. Very disappointing on the part of President Nelson. Now I have a better idea why it is that he has made bad decisions from the outset of his presidency: he's a bad egg.

[dastardly stem]

For consideration, let's consider for a second what hill it is those who defend the story are wanting to die on. And this gets to why I don't care much at all about whether the story really happened as told--I imagine there has to be a few elements of exaggeration at the very least.

The moral of the story is if you are faithful, if you really believe covenants you made with god are effective, then when faced with death, you will not panic....or you might not...or it's good not to. Whatever really happened on that flight, that fateful day, the story that resulted is patently stupid. If it were true that the plane caught on fire, spiral nose dived and everyone aboard, except perhaps the pilot, were certain of death, then any person walking away from the incident saying "other's panicked but I was so calm due to my righteousness" is a prick. Unless Nelson is the pilot trying to save people's lives, there is no virtue in not panicking in that scenario, as I see it. Which gets even more to the point. Why is Nelson praising himself in a story when the actual hero gets no mention? Apparently all he did was avoid peeing himself or something of that nature.

[DrW]

You all have done some amazing work here. Wow. Very disappointing on the part of President Nelson. Now I have a better idea why it is that he has made bad decisions from the outset of his presidency: he's a bad egg.

For those who appreciate irony, Kish, the discovery of the CAB letter by ko9s, an apparently faithful Mormon who posted it on this board in defense of Russell M. Nelson, was arguably the single most amazing bit of work on the whole thread.

[dastardly stem]

I peaked in on the MD&D thread due to it being mentioned here. Shoot! if they are happy to conclude that memories can be bad, so it's possible he turned a precautionary landing in Delta into a story of nose diving spirals, explosions, fire and certain death, then how could we possibly accept any story anyone tells as a representation of reality?

But again, it must be the moral that counts to them? As I see it the moral is the worst part.

The problem to me is less about he lied, or exaggerated, or mixed things up...its that he used the incident to do one thing--tell everyone he's the most righteous. Walking away from the incident he describes and using it to tell everyone he's the most righteous? Well, that's one sucky thing. Walking away from a non-incident, like a precautionary landing, and exaggerating that to a death-defying experience in order to tell everyone he's the most righteous?

I mean, whatever floats the old guy's boat. But whether he's telling the truth or not, it sucks.

[Dr Moore]

With faded memory is it honest to say things like “I vividly recall…”?

[drumdude]

The great part about being a Mormon Apostle is you never have to deal with anyone questioning you. No one will ever be allowed to face-to-face question him about this. I'm sure he is at the point where he believes his own lie, now that he's told it over the majority of his life.

[Craig Paxton]

Fair Dinkum’s thread on the MD&D Board mentioned three instances of over-the-line embellishment for which Russell M. Nelson has been called to account. Bro. Dinkum’s thread is now up to nine pages and continues to provide great examples of magical thinking, willful ignorance, and denial of reality on the part of many posters there. Dr. Moore has just listed a set of rules at MD&D for the exercise of this delusional groupthink.

That entire thread is a case study into mental gymnastics. I had forgotten just how contorted and twisted a TBM mind could go to maintain belief in Mormonism and its leadership. Some take a ways from that thread:

01. Before diving into any tough question and irrespective of the facts, always start with the conclusion that the church is true.
02. Disregard any fact that might cause one to doubt or come to any conclusion but the pre-arrived at conclusion.
03. Throw out all kinds of silly alternative explanations that justify and muddy the charge of embellishment and share them throughout the thread to throw anyone daring to come to a logical conclusion off the scent and lead them back to the "authorized-conclusion®"
04. Because we already know what the correct conclusion is before we examine the facts, facts don't matter and can be disregarded or completely dismissed.
05. NEVER question the integrity of a General Authority. Even the Stories of Paul H Dunn have value and promote faith.
06. When in doubt, refer back to take away # 01.
07. Because we already know that President Nelson was not lying or embellishing, attack and discredit the CAB report, cast doubt on it and not our beloved leader...no not Kim Jong Un silly, President Nelson.
08. If all else fails attack the OP, he obviously is a church critic and has an ax to grind and attacking him will cast doubt on his post
09. Remind everyone that President Nelson was a world renowned heart surgeon.
10. If all else fails just remind everyone that we are talking about a 96 year old man after all...Oh and the Church is True, remember?