Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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dastardly stem
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by dastardly stem »

Dr Moore wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:00 pm
With faded memory is it honest to say things like “I vividly recall…”?
Well yeah...I read in Psychology Today:
In one experiment, researchers showed volunteers images and asked them to imagine other images at the same time. Later, many of the volunteers recalled the imagined images as real. Using fMRI, the researchers were able to determine which parts of the brain formed the false memories and which formed the real ones. “We think parts of the brain used to actually perceive an object and to imagine an object overlap,” says Northwestern University scientist Kenneth Paller. “Thus, the vividly imagined event can leave a memory trace in the brain that’s very similar to that of an experienced event.”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... r-happened

Maybe we can apply this type of brain analysis to his story. Maybe he's not lying because it could be that the part of our brain that perceives things is also the part that imagines things. He just happened to syncretize things like movie scenes with past events. He came out as the great example in the story because he sees himself as living the life everyone else should emulate.

I don't know. Maybe.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:53 pm
Dr Moore wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:00 pm
With faded memory is it honest to say things like “I vividly recall…”?
Well yeah...I read in Psychology Today:
In one experiment, researchers showed volunteers images and asked them to imagine other images at the same time. Later, many of the volunteers recalled the imagined images as real. Using fMRI, the researchers were able to determine which parts of the brain formed the false memories and which formed the real ones. “We think parts of the brain used to actually perceive an object and to imagine an object overlap,” says Northwestern University scientist Kenneth Paller. “Thus, the vividly imagined event can leave a memory trace in the brain that’s very similar to that of an experienced event.”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... r-happened

Maybe we can apply this type of brain analysis to his story. Maybe he's not lying because it could be that the part of our brain that perceives things is also the part that imagines things. He just happened to syncretize things like movie scenes with past events. He came out as the great example in the story because he sees himself as living the life everyone else should emulate.

I don't know. Maybe.
This is likely the most plausible of all explanations for a "scary" flight becoming the "vivid" subject of Nelson's many subsequent recollections. Why?

1. The "lesson" from this event changed. Initially, he wrote that the flight served to remind him to write his history for his posterity. Only later did the event become a lesson about temple covenant gratitude. You could argue both are related, but they are very different internal motivations (passing on your life story to the living, vs being personally calm with gratitude for eternal after-death blessings). That inconsistency suggests he imprinted his own false memories onto the event much later.

2. Psychologists who study trauma (eg, Bruce Perry) have extensive research showing that it's basically physically impossible for people to experience the trauma of a near-death experience AND at the same time have full cognitive, logical awareness. This is another aspect of Nelson's story that makes no sense -- he was either aware of imminent death, and therefore his brain function was dominated by instinctual drives, or he was in no danger and was therefore perfectly calm and cognitively attuned to the lady next to him and his temple covenants. He cannot have been both perfectly calm and cognitive while at the same time grappling with the fear and trauma of an uncontrolled fiery spiral death dive. (Highly recommend reading the book above for more detail and references) The inconsistency in Nelson's retelling of his own personal experience also suggests that he was (a) scared of dying and (b) implanted false memories about the event later, which to him must have become the real "vivid" event.

I believe the fear he felt was real, but that almost all of the other details about the event, whether the plane, behavior of other passengers, and his inner bimodal experience of being perfect calm cognition while undergoing the trauma of fearing for his life, are false memories that he found later utility as a story telling tool to underscore the importance of gospel living and temple covenants.

Ironically, the one real thing about Nelson's story -- fear of dying on a plane -- is entirely consistent with the fear-driven lesson he teaches every time he tells this story. Ultimately, Nelson is reminding listeners that we are all potentially seconds away from death and should therefore be ever worthy and vigilant in covenant keeping. It's a story about fear meant to inspire fear.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Morley »

Moore:

I was in the process of writing a response to Stem, when I checked back and saw that you'd done it better than I ever could. Well said. Thank you for referencing Perry.

Let me add that Psychology Today might be the worst place to learn about psychology. They reduce a complex emerging science to a golly-gee that can be read and misunderstood, all in a very few minutes.
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Last edited by Morley on Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by DrW »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:53 pm
Well yeah...I read in Psychology Today:
In one experiment, researchers showed volunteers images and asked them to imagine other images at the same time. Later, many of the volunteers recalled the imagined images as real. Using fMRI, the researchers were able to determine which parts of the brain formed the false memories and which formed the real ones. “We think parts of the brain used to actually perceive an object and to imagine an object overlap,” says Northwestern University scientist Kenneth Paller. “Thus, the vividly imagined event can leave a memory trace in the brain that’s very similar to that of an experienced event.”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... r-happened

Maybe we can apply this type of brain analysis to his story. Maybe he's not lying because it could be that the part of our brain that perceives things is also the part that imagines things. He just happened to syncretize things like movie scenes with past events. He came out as the great example in the story because he sees himself as living the life everyone else should emulate.

I don't know. Maybe.
Or maybe not. A criminal who vividly recalls that his partner in crime was the one who shot the victim, but who faces incontrovertible evidence (such as security camera video) to the contrary, is unlikely to be found not guilty because of his "false" memories. The same standards and rules of evidence applied in the courts should apply in any situation where the truth matters.

In contributing to this and other threads on this board, there have been several instances when details and dates of events that took place more than 40 years ago were a bit hazy. When needed, I took the time to check the dates in my pilot logbooks and on related documents, review dates on images of aircraft flown, and check events in saved journals and consolidated written family history, to try to describe events from the past as accurately as possible.

One would hope that a high official of the LDS Church, comprised of "a record keeping people" formerly commanded to keep personal journals would, at this point in his life, be able to refer to personal journals or written family histories at least equivalent to those of a post-Mormon agnostic.

Russell M. Nelson apparently could not be bothered, either to write them or to refer to them, or both. Sorry, I call B.S. on the idea that Russell M. Nelson's story arises from false memory, or is anything other than a fabrication from whole cloth, done in his personal interest, and with the intent to deceive.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." (David Hume)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by dastardly stem »

If you guys did not get that I am but playing devil's advocate, in a tongue in cheekish way, I have failed as a participant on this board. And for that I apologize.

Let me reiterate. I too think Nelson largely embellished whatever happened. I mean he seemed to embellish it so badly he basically fabricated the whole thing. I mean there was at least a flight that took off in SL and landed in Delta on its way to St George. That's about as much as I accept from the story, at this point.

I tease the posters at MD&D for thinking it is acceptable to think the exaggerations are explainable by the human penchant for remembering poorly. And yes, that link to Psychology Today was part of my fun.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Morley »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:03 pm
If you guys did not get that I am but playing devil's advocate, in a tongue in cheekish way, I have failed as a participant on this board. And for that I apologize.

Let me reiterate. I too think Nelson largely embellished whatever happened. I mean he seemed to embellish it so badly he basically fabricated the whole thing. I mean there was at least a flight that took off in SL and landed in Delta on its way to St George. That's about as much as I accept from the story, at this point.

I tease the posters at MD&D for thinking it is acceptable to think the exaggerations are explainable by the human penchant for remembering poorly. And yes, that link to Psychology Today was part of my fun.
Ha! Okay. Good for you.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by warbreaker »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:07 pm
Has anyone considered that the definition of "on fire" "spiral death dive" and "farmer's field" may have been different in the 1970s?


We are simply reading into the story our modern ideas.
Clearly the fire was only visible to his spiritual eyes.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Moksha »

warbreaker wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:41 pm
Clearly the fire was only visible to his spiritual eyes.
The apologists should be pushing the idea that his spiritual eyes were inspired by his spiritual imagination.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by kairos »

Assume what most here believe- The flight is on course but sometime after takeoff the pilot senses the right engine is running “ rough”. In the normal course of such a flight would the pilot announce to the passengers something along the lines “folks this is your captain - our right engine is running a little rough so I am going to shut it down and we are going to make a precautionary landing at the Delta , Utah airport. Nothing to worry about as this plane can operate effectively with our left engine which is operating normally. we will be landing in about XX minutes so please check your seat belts and prepare for landing”.
Now imagine you are on this plane with several other passengers. How would your brain process this situation?
Once safely on the ground would you first check your pants legs, then find out what is next in getting you to St. George, then call your wife, call ahead to your party at your destination, overall just accept this as an inconvenience that worked out safely for you???
What difference would a pilot’s announcement make in your brain processing what is happening.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Kishkumen »

I can't escape the conclusion that President Nelson makes up dramatic stories in order to look like he leads this really heroic life that he does not in fact lead. If I wasn't already opposed to him for his terrible policy decisions, I would say that this breaks it, but I lost any respect for him some time ago. This is just confirmation that my judgment was correct.
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