Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by IHAQ »

It's interesting that he has felt the need to embellish the story from the start, and increasingly thereafter. The anecdote itself would have been a decent journal entry had it been exactly as we now know it was - "Flew to Dixie today, the plane I was on had a fault with one of the engines which caused me some anxiety. We had to divert to Delta as a precaution and I caught another flight and I got to Dixie on time. Whilst we were diverting to Delta and I was grappling with my anxiety, the rituals I had undertaken in the temple gave me some peace and acceptance of my situation should things turn catastrophic. I'm grateful for that peace during what was for me a frightening event. I'm also grateful for the training and competence of the pilot."

Decent story, same point made.

The embellishments must feed something other than the desire to have an anecdote about feeling grateful for temple covenants and family.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Tom »

Gabriel wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:02 am
DrW wrote:
Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:19 pm
One more expression of thanks to you, Gabriel. The quote in the book you found makes a nice baseline from which to determine the amount of embellishment Russell M. Nelson added to the story over the years.

More significantly, it makes absolutely clear that Nelson had his own initial written description of the event to refer to and takes away any excuse of "aging memory" as a reason for his gross misrepresentation of the facts.

Failure to at least try to make his faith-promoting tall tale consistent with his earlier account also reflects a level of disrespect, or even disdain, for his audience (as in a Trumpian, "They will believe anything I tell them!" approach in attempting to create an alternate reality.)

There could hardly be a better example of one being hoisted with one's own petard.
My pleasure, Good Doctor W!

It might interest you to know that Russell had his own Professor Moriarty figure (whom he refers to mysteriously as "Dr. W"):


Compress_20210823_034819_9802.jpg
The following passage in Nelson's biography puzzled me a bit:
In recognition of Dr. Nelson's demonstrated competence and promise as a medical researcher, the John and Mary R. Markle Foundation in March 1957 awarded him a prestigious research grant of $6,000 annually for five years to support his continued cardiovascular research.

Not long afterward, the dean of the University of Utah College of Medicine resigned, and Russell's dear friend and mentor, Dr. Price, became the new dean. Dr. Nelson realized that Dr. Price's replacement as professor of surgery could have a significant impact on the development of his career. The man chosen to be the new professor and head of the department of surgery had long-range plans that did not include Russell's remaining in the department. Thus, after four rewarding years as a full-time member of the faculty at the University of Utah College of Medicine, Russell left his position on the faculty and released the Markle award after having held it for only two years.
I wonder why the long-range plans of the department of surgery chair did not include Nelson. The book cites Heart, p. 100.
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.” Heber C. Kimball, 8 Nov. 1857
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

Lem wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:43 pm
I’ll have to find my source, but If I recall correctly the inauguration event occurred in the afternoon at 2 pm. It would make sense that a flight the day before might be necessary in order to be there for an early afternoon event.
That's right, it was afternoon. I think upthread someone posted a newsclipping with the agenda.

The journal entry being dated the 12th might have led to later recollections assuming he flew on the 12th. It doesn't excuse the embellishment, but I wonder if the entry date might have become the basis for adding that happy ending note to the story, that Nelson "made it to his appointment on time" in subsequent retellings. Anything to increase the miracle meter a notch, I suppose.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Gadianton »

Gabriel,

see how this stacks up; I can't make out the words very well from the photo.

One of today's wonders of AI are sites like these:

https://brandfolder.com/workbench/extra ... from-image
16 From Heart Heart
Fashiwton, DC, and the Army
to me, for just a few days before I had
Medical Service Graduate School for our trip to Korea tot
the act of death among the wounded over there
We left our apartment Vacant, and in June of 1951 I flew to St
Lake City with Dantel Marsha, and Wendy, leaving them with me
parents and then I bade adicu to my beloved family and went about
my military dury
At Travis Air Force Base we were processed for the long over
cas flight. Our team consisted of Dr. Florindo A. Simeone,
of surgery from Cleveland, Dr.(Captain) George E. Schreiner, der
nist from Georgetown University, Dr. (Major) Curtis P. Art of the
Brooke Army Medical Center, and me a first lieutenant). As a fou
man team we lived together for the entire summer of 1951. Wer
from Travis Air Force Base to Honolulu. That was the first time I
had ever been to Hawaii. We had about an hour stopover between
planes, and I thought that would be a great opportunity to get some
fresh pineapple, which I dearly loved. I went into the restaurant there
and asked for some pineapple. What do you think I got? A slice
pincapple out of a can just as we would have gotten on the mainland
That was a great disappointment, but I remember how sweet the air
smelled, how beautiful the weather was, and how lovely the people
were, even in just a cnc-bour layover at the airport,
From Honolulu we traveled to Wake Island, where we saw
remnants of the war fought there six years previously with Japan.
Wake Island was nothing more than a coral reef with an airport on
it and a few Quonset huts. It was so hot.
From Wake we flew to Tokyo for our bricfings. The first night
in Tokyo there was an earthquake. I was in the top bunk of a double
bunk bed, and the first thing I know, I was on the floor. The chus
delien were swinging and the dresses toppled over. That was a dis-
quieting feeling. The tremors lasted very briefly, and then all Washington
back to normal again
We flew from Tokyo to Pusan, Korea. On this flight, whidi Washington
entirely military. I was handed a rifle. I asked them why, and the
reply was." All lieutenants get rifles. Captains and above get pistols
Since I was a first lieutenant, I got a rifle
I told them that I had never used a rifle before and didn't have
any idea how to work it.
"Garry it anyway." was the response.
So I arried that rifle wherever I went. I remember one day
while walking through the streets on the outskirts of a little Korean
ith my rifle in hand an ordered, I was fired upon by w
North Korean Communist guerillas still hiding in the hills mund
hout, I had no way of defending myself because I didn't kew
bete the shots were coming and I didn't know how to fit the title
hod. Vsemed that my rifle was more of a band to me than protte
Dr. Simeone, Captain Schreiner, Major Art, and I visited every
Mobile Army Surgical Hospital (M.ASHL) in Kores, several bural
on and stations, and went right up to the firing line where our ar
billery units were firing at the enemy. This seemed quite incongruous
ed the and comfort
a family reunion in our back yard in Salt Lake City, and now here
I was in the midst of a war being fired upons and caring for the
wounded. There is a saying that there are no atheists in foxholes 1
had a firsthand experience of knowing what that was like when one
might in one of the Mobile Army Surgical Hospitals we were ab
jected to an air raid. Dr. Simeone and I shared a foxhole together for
most of the night. He, a devout Catholic, and I. devout Mormon.
prayed unitedly in our forehole that our mission might be a successful
one and that our lives might be preserved.
In addition to visiting the vast majority of South Korea and all
of the Allied medical institutions there, we visited the prison camp
island of Koje-do. That was an eye-opening experience. Geral for
the prisoners' breakfast was cooked in large auldrons, and the mash
was dished out to these soldiers in a very primitive fashion. Their
excrement was removed from their quarters down to the sea in what
was called a "honey bucket brigade. Buckets of excrement were
placed on each end of a large beam carried across a primer
shoulders. Countless numbers of these men lined up in this fashion
and walked from the camp to the sea. I can still remember the oder
cmanating from this honey-bucket brigade.
Our mission also included work at virtually all of our hospitals
in Japan, all the way from Tokyo General Hospial on the main
land of Honshu down to our hospital in Fukuoka on the southern
bp of the small island of Kyushu. We spent a good deal of time in
the Osaka General Hospital where we examined the patients will
maimed from cold injury from the precedink water. Mesurements
made on these soldiers who had been subjected to frostbite indicated
that the blood flow to their extremities wasteduced even it cigarette
Smoke was inhaled secondhand. 1 man smoking a cigarette entered
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Gadianton »

Dr. Moore wrote:The journal entry being dated the 12th might have led to later recollections assuming he flew on the 12th. It doesn't excuse the embellishment, but I wonder if the entry date might have become the basis for adding that happy ending note to the story, that Nelson "made it to his appointment on time" in subsequent retellings
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Gabriel »

Gadianton wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:31 am
Gabriel,

see how this stacks up; I can't make out the words very well from the photo.

One of today's wonders of AI are sites like these:

https://brandfolder.com/workbench/extra ... from-image
10-4. Here is the clean version:
Russell M. Nelson wrote:p. 76 From Heart Heart

...Medical Service Graduate School for our trip to Korea to investigate the causes of death among the wounded over there.

We left our apartment vacant, and in June of 1951 I flew to Salt Lake City with Dantzel, Marsha, and Wendy, leaving them with our parents; and then I bade adieu to my beloved family and went about my military duty.

At Travis Air Force Base we were processed for the long over-seas flight. Our team consisted of Dr. Fiorindo A. Simeone, professor of surgery from Cleveland; Dr.(Captain) George E. Schreiner, internist from Georgetown University, Dr. (Major) Curtis P. Artz of the Brooke Army Medical Center; and me (a first lieutenant). As a four man team we lived together for the entire summer of 1951. We flew from Travis Air Force Base to Honolulu. That was the first time I
had ever been to Hawaii. We had about an hour stopover between planes, and I thought that would be a great opportunity to get some fresh pineapple, which I dearly loved. I went into the restaurant there and asked for some pineapple. What do you think I got? A slice of pineapple out of a can just as we would have gotten on the mainland.
That was a great disappointment, but I remember how sweet the air smelled, how beautiful the weather was, and how lovely the people were, even in just a one-hour layover at the airport.

From Honolulu we traveled to Wake Island, where we saw remnants of the war fought there six years previously with Japan. Wake Island was nothing more than a coral reef with an airport on it and a few Quonset huts. It was so hot.

From Wake we flew to Tokyo for our briefings. The first night in Tokyo there was an earthquake. I was in the top bunk of a double bunk bed, and the first thing I know, I was on the floor. The chandeliers were swinging and the dressers toppled over. That was a disquieting feeling. The tremors lasted very briefly, and then all was back to normal again.

We flew from Tokyo to Pusan, Korea. On this flight, which was entirely military, I was handed a rifle. I asked them why, and the reply was, "All lieutenants get rifles. Captains and above get pistols." Since I was a first lieutenant, I got a rifle.

I told them that I had never used a rifle before and didn't have any idea how to work it.
"Carry it anyway," was the response.

So I carried that rifle wherever I went. I remember one day while walking through the streets on the outskirts of a little Korean village with my rifle in hand as ordered, I was fired upon by some North Korean Communist guerillas still hiding in the hills round about, I had no way of defending myself because I didn't know from where the shots were coming and I didn't know how to fire the rifle I had. I sensed that my rifle was more of a hazard to me than a protection.

Dr. Simeone, Captain Schreiner, Major Artz, and I visited every Mobile Army Surgical Hospital (MASH) in Korea, several battalion aid stations, and went right up to the firing line where our artillery units were firing at the enemy. This seemed quite incongruous to me, for just a few days before I had enjoyed the peace and comfort of a family reunion in our back yard in Salt Lake City, and now here I was in the midst of a war being fired upon and caring for the wounded. There is a saying that there are no atheists in foxholes. I had a firsthand experience of knowing what that was like when one night in one of the Mobile Army Surgical Hospitals we were subjected to an air raid. Dr. Simeone and I shared a foxhole together for most of the night. He, a devout Catholic, and I, devout Mormon prayed unitedly in our foxhole that our mission might be a successful one and that our lives might be preserved.

In addition to visiting the vast majority of South Korea and all of the Allied medical institutions there, we visited the prison camp island of Koje-do. That was an eye-opening experience. Cereal for the prisoners' breakfast was cooked in large cauldrons, and the mash was dished out to these soldiers in a very primitive fashion. Their excrement was removed from their quarters down to the sea in what was called a "honey bucket brigade." Buckets of excrement were placed on each end of a large beam carried across a prisoner's shoulders. Countless numbers of these men lined up in this fashion and walked from the camp to the sea. I can still remember the odor emanating from this honey-bucket brigade.

Our mission also included work at virtually all of our hospitals in Japan, all the way from Tokyo General Hospital on the main island of Honshu down to our hospital in Fukuoka on the southern tip of the small island of Kyushu. We spent a good deal of time in the Osaka General Hospital where we examined the patients still maimed from cold injury from the preceding winter. Measurements made on these soldiers who had been subjected to frostbite indicated that the blood flow to their extremities was reduced even if cigarette smoke was inhaled secondhand. If a man smoking a cigarette entered ...
Edited to clean up formatting.
Last edited by Gabriel on Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Gabriel »

Tom wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:59 pm
The following passage in Nelson's biography puzzled me a bit:
In recognition of Dr. Nelson's demonstrated competence and promise as a medical researcher, the John and Mary R. Markle Foundation in March 1957 awarded him a prestigious research grant of $6,000 annually for five years to support his continued cardiovascular research.

Not long afterward, the dean of the University of Utah College of Medicine resigned, and Russell's dear friend and mentor, Dr. Price, became the new dean. Dr. Nelson realized that Dr. Price's replacement as professor of surgery could have a significant impact on the development of his career. The man chosen to be the new professor and head of the department of surgery had long-range plans that did not include Russell's remaining in the department. Thus, after four rewarding years as a full-time member of the faculty at the University of Utah College of Medicine, Russell left his position on the faculty and released the Markle award after having held it for only two years.
I wonder why the long-range plans of the department of surgery chair did not include Nelson. The book cites Heart, p. 100.
Well, let's shake that Magic 8 Ball and see what Russell has to say:
Russell M. Nelson wrote: In 1957, through the instigation of Dr. Price, the University of Utah College of Medicine nominated me for the coveted Markle Scholar in Medical Sciences Award, which took me to the competitive meeting in Colorado Springs, Colorado. I was delighted to be among the winners of this award, which included a prize of $6,000 annually
for five years, granted to the University of Utah for my support. This was really a tremendous boost to us, for not only did that income look mighty good, but the prestige associated with the award was and still is very meaningful.

The dean of the University of Utah College of Medicine resigned about this time, and my dear friend and mentor, Dr. Philip B. Price, was persuaded to become the new dean. While I knew this meant that we would have a superb dean, it also meant that we would have a new professor of surgery, which could have a significant impact on the development of my career. Indeed it did, for the man chosen to be the new professor of surgery was Dr. Walter J. Burdette. He made a very favorable impression on the search committee because of the work he had done in genetics and molecular biology.

It soon became apparent that his long-range plans did not include my remaining in the department. I was somewhat oblivious to this for a while, but it became rather evident when the Markle Scholar money which had been awarded for my use began to be diverted by Dr. Burdette's direction to other uses. I felt that he had confiscated the award that had been given to me; but in spite of Dr. Price's pleadings, both with Dr. Burdette and with the Markle Scholarship people themselves, Dr. Burdette's desires could not be changed. So after four wonderful years as a full-time member of the faculty of the University of Utah College of Medicine, I resigned from my position on the faculty and released the Markle Scholar award after having held it for only two years.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Tom »

Dew's Insights from a Prophet's Life tells another miraculous story involving Nelson and a plane. This time, though, he was traveling by Concorde rather than by Piper:
In January 1988, Elder Nelson and Dantzel boarded the Concorde in New York for a quick three-hour and forty-five minute flight to London's Heathrow International airport. Their first assignment in England was to speak to a large congregation, including missionaries from the London South Mission, that evening in Crawley, England.

About the time the plane should have begun its descent, the intercom crackled and the pilot announced that, unfortunately, Heathrow was socked in with fog and the plane was diverting to Manchester, 211 miles north of London. Elder Nelson's heart sank. There was no way he and Dantzel could get from Manchester back to Crawley to keep their appointment that night. He immediately sat back in his seat and offered a silent but fervent prayer that the way would open for them to honor their commitments and speak to the Saints who were assembling, even at that hour, in Crawley.

A few minutes later, the pilot came back on the intercom and announced that there was another change in plans. They didn't have enough fuel to make it to Manchester but had been cleared at Gatwick, another London area airport, for an emergency refueling stop. He added that no passengers would be allowed to disembark.

Gatwick was actually closer to Crawley than even Heathrow, so despite the announcement that passengers could not get off the plane there, Elder Nelson told Dantzel to gather her things because they were getting off. He then called a flight attendant, explained his dilemma, and asked if he and his wife could please deplane at Gatwick.

"No," she responded.

He gently continued with his appeal: "You don't understand. I have a thousand or more people gathered to hear me speak. I really must get off here."

The flight attendant persisted in saying no, and Elder Nelson insisted he really must get off the plane. Finally, the flight attendant summoned the pilot for reinforcements. Together they listed all the reasons the Nelsons could not get off the plane. There were no customs agents waiting to greet this flight. They would not be able to get their luggage from the cargo hold. And so on.

Elder Nelson had a response for each issue: "We will find customs agents to let us through," he assured them. "All of our luggage is carry-on and we have it with us." Finally, the pilot shrugged and told the crew to let them off.


Meanwhile, President Ed J. Pinegar, president of the London South Mission, and his wife, Pat, were waiting at Heathrow for the Nelsons. With each new announcement about the change in flight, they too prayed silently and asked the Lord to intervene. When President Pinegar heard the flight had landed at Gatwick, he called the chapel where they were to speak. He didn't know if the Nelsons would be able to get off at Gatwick, but, hoping for the best, he arranged for a car to hurry to the airport to pick them up.

Not long after the Nelsons emerged from customs, a car arrived to get them, and they rushed off to the stake center. With all of the disruption, they were only fifteen minutes late to the meeting.

"A packed house witnessed a real miracle that night," Elder Nelson said. "We asked the Lord for help, and President and Sister Pinegar asked the Lord to help us, and the Lord responded. There was no doubt in any of our minds that we had experienced a miracle" (Pinegar, What Every Future Missionary, chapter 1).
Insights from a Prophet's Life, 199-201.

Pinegar's book has some additional, faith-promoting details. For example, Pinegar told a clerk at the airport that "there is an Apostle on that plane and he needs to be in Crawley to speak" and then asked the clerk why the plane didn't land at Gatwick. Within a minute or so, Pinegar writes, an announcement was made that the plane had been diverted to Gatwick.
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.” Heber C. Kimball, 8 Nov. 1857
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by malkie »

Tom wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:58 pm
Dew's Insights from a Prophet's Life tells another miraculous story involving Nelson and a plane. This time, though, he was traveling by Concorde rather than by Piper:
In January 1988, Elder Nelson and Dantzel boarded the Concorde in New York for a quick three-hour and forty-five minute flight to London's Heathrow International airport. Their first assignment in England was to speak to a large congregation, including missionaries from the London South Mission, that evening in Crawley, England.

About the time the plane should have begun its descent, the intercom crackled and the pilot announced that, unfortunately, Heathrow was socked in with fog and the plane was diverting to Manchester, 211 miles north of London. Elder Nelson's heart sank. There was no way he and Dantzel could get from Manchester back to Crawley to keep their appointment that night. He immediately sat back in his seat and offered a silent but fervent prayer that the way would open for them to honor their commitments and speak to the Saints who were assembling, even at that hour, in Crawley.

A few minutes later, the pilot came back on the intercom and announced that there was another change in plans. They didn't have enough fuel to make it to Manchester but had been cleared at Gatwick, another London area airport, for an emergency refueling stop. He added that no passengers would be allowed to disembark.

Gatwick was actually closer to Crawley than even Heathrow, so despite the announcement that passengers could not get off the plane there, Elder Nelson told Dantzel to gather her things because they were getting off. He then called a flight attendant, explained his dilemma, and asked if he and his wife could please deplane at Gatwick.

"No," she responded.

He gently continued with his appeal: "You don't understand. I have a thousand or more people gathered to hear me speak. I really must get off here."

The flight attendant persisted in saying no, and Elder Nelson insisted he really must get off the plane. Finally, the flight attendant summoned the pilot for reinforcements. Together they listed all the reasons the Nelsons could not get off the plane. There were no customs agents waiting to greet this flight. They would not be able to get their luggage from the cargo hold. And so on.

Elder Nelson had a response for each issue: "We will find customs agents to let us through," he assured them. "All of our luggage is carry-on and we have it with us." Finally, the pilot shrugged and told the crew to let them off.


Meanwhile, President Ed J. Pinegar, president of the London South Mission, and his wife, Pat, were waiting at Heathrow for the Nelsons. With each new announcement about the change in flight, they too prayed silently and asked the Lord to intervene. When President Pinegar heard the flight had landed at Gatwick, he called the chapel where they were to speak. He didn't know if the Nelsons would be able to get off at Gatwick, but, hoping for the best, he arranged for a car to hurry to the airport to pick them up.

Not long after the Nelsons emerged from customs, a car arrived to get them, and they rushed off to the stake center. With all of the disruption, they were only fifteen minutes late to the meeting.

"A packed house witnessed a real miracle that night," Elder Nelson said. "We asked the Lord for help, and President and Sister Pinegar asked the Lord to help us, and the Lord responded. There was no doubt in any of our minds that we had experienced a miracle" (Pinegar, What Every Future Missionary, chapter 1).
Insights from a Prophet's Life, 199-201.

Pinegar's book has some additional, faith-promoting details. For example, Pinegar told a clerk at the airport that "there is an Apostle on that plane and he needs to be in Crawley to speak" and then asked the clerk why the plane didn't land at Gatwick. Within a minute or so, Pinegar writes, an announcement was made that the plane had been diverted to Gatwick.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Gadianton »

Pinegar's book has some additional, faith-promoting details. For example, Pinegar told a clerk at the airport that "there is an Apostle on that plane and he needs to be in Crawley to speak" and then asked the clerk why the plane didn't land at Gatwick. Within a minute or so, Pinegar writes, an announcement was made that the plane had been diverted to Gatwick.
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