At least when DrW, tapirrider and others argued there was no way Russell M. Nelson was on a plane at that time in that place that experienced anything close enough to have served as the germ of the story it seemed like the waste of time was meant to prove something not already demonstrated in the evidence.
It appears that honorentheos failed to read or understand my post on the first page of this thread describing where some germ-like elements of the Russell M. Nelson story could have come from:
DrW wrote: However, one can see from the description above where some of the story elements may have come from. If the pilot did momentarily lose control, there would have been a steep bank and a sharp turn to the right (a spiral?). He would have pulled back power to recover the plane. So passengers may have assumed that the Left engine quit since neither engine was producing power.
Losing altitude to the point of a near crash may have been an exaggeration of the response to a momentary loss of control and the attendant altitude loss while the throttle was pulled back on the Left engine.
His apparently uninformed mischaracterization of my argument on this thread is typical of his participation. In the end, tapirrider's assessment of the Russell M. Nelson tall tale is directly on point. As with Paul H. Dunn, the events Russell M. Nelson described did not happen. Furthermore, as Doc Cam and I have pointed out, some of the elements of the story could not have happened.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." (David Hume)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
Individuals to whom you attribute Dunning-Kruger behavio include a professional aircraft mechanic, a college professor specializing in probability and statistics, and an experienced pilot. We, and others, have reached the conclusion that the incident described, in falsifiable detail by Russell M. Nelson, simply did not happen.
...
Have you even read my first post on this thread where I described how one could embellish the experience of a poorly handled engine-out event to come up with Russell M. Nelson's story? My comments were exceedingly generous in that regard. Problem is, there is no evidence whatsoever for such an engine-out event, let alone one with a fire and a death spiral plunge in flames with a miraculous left engine re-start to save God's chosen.
I am assuming we are only talking about the plausibility of some actual event occurring in which Nelson was on a plane and came away believing he was about to die compared to his making up the story from whole cloth.
No. I don't know where you get that. In fact, it's impossible you got that from this thread, so why frame it that way? It doesn't make any sense. For me, I'm straight up claiming the story was BS and fabricated out of whole cloth. Whether or not he took a flight that experienced some air turbulence and he morphed that into this tale is 100% irrelevant to the details available to us and told to us from the pulpit and from LDS publications.
Did the flight as told to us by him and his wife happen?
No. It did not. Period. And I'm willing to metaphorically take the stand and testify under oath that what we discovered puts the credibility of this story at zero. RI can whatif and whatabout all he wants. Cool. It's made the thread more interesting and caused some of us to explore every avenue we know of to ferret out details only to find that every_single_avenue to us ends in a dead end.
- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
No. I don't know where you get that. In fact, it's impossible you got that from this thread, so why frame it that way? It doesn't make any sense. For me, I'm straight up claiming the story was BS and fabricated out of whole cloth. Whether or not he took a flight that experienced some air turbulence and he morphed that into this tale is 100% irrelevant to the details available to us and told to us from the pulpit and from LDS publications.
Did the flight as told to us by him and his wife happen?
No. It did not. Period. And I'm willing to metaphorically take the stand and testify under oath that what we discovered puts the credibility of this story at zero. RI can whatif and whatabout all he wants. Cool. It's made the thread more interesting and caused some of us to explore every avenue we know of to ferret out details only to find that every_single_avenue to us ends in a dead end.
- Doc
The trap was sprung by the intended prey, Cam. DrW was my target and he was gracious enough to play his role perfectly. Even down to claiming I missed his post on page one despite his invalidating that concession in a response to me.
Old overconfident former LDS priest holders cock sure of their rightness are delightful playthings. Even more so when engaging in self-aggrandizing hypocrisy while being indignant about self-aggrandizing hypocrisy.
Anyway, I thought Res deserved some vindication even if he never returns to these salty, salty shores.
Last edited by honorentheos on Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
How many times has Nelson told and retold this story? It seems to have been a life-changer for him, no? So why wouldn't he do some digging to validate his recounting of the specific technical details he seems to recall so vividly.
The key seems to be the telling, and then the retelling, as you mentioned. I had a good friend who was great at telling stories, and she had a whopper about being swept off Jones Beach in a riptide and being rescued by an intrepid member of the fabled NYC life guard crew.
The second or third time I heard her tell the story to a group of fascinated youth, I was a little nonplussed at the apparent changes. Her husband standing next to me must have seen my face, because he leaned over, chuckling quietly, and whispered in my ear, "every time the lifeguard grows more muscles, the riptide gets faster by several miles per hour, and the distance she was swept down the beach increases by half a mile."
Eventually, I expect the story will involve Dwayne "the Rock" Johnson sweeping her out of a riptide that sank the NYC CircleLine cruises, and him dramatically resuscitating her on a Hampton Beach in front of the NY governor and mayor, both.
Here’s a good example where board participants were focused on the embellished version of the story, rather than whether or not Russell M. Nelson was on a flight that landed due to a mechanical issue.
- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
The trap was sprung by the intended prey, Cam. DrW was my target and he was gracious enough to play his role perfectly. Even down to claiming I missed his post on page one despite his invalidating that concession in a response to me.
Old overconfident former LDS priest holders cock sure of their rightness are delightful playthings. Even more so when engaging in self-aggrandizing hypocrisy while being indignant about self-aggrandizing hypocrisy.
Anyway, I thought Res deserved some vindication even if he never returns to these salty, salty shores.
What’s the nuance I’m missing here, Honor? I’ll have to go back to page 1 and do a better job at tracking how the discussion unfolded, I think.
- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
the dishonored honor wrote:
... good to hear from you. I just happen to have a plate of dicks for you to chomp on.
...
Hmmm, yummy, yummy dicks.
...The trap was sprung by the intended prey, Cam....Old overconfident former LDS priest holders cock sure of their rightness are delightful playthings.
...There seems to be something really serious going on with the poster who said that. In years past, there was always an attempt by this poster to understand an argument from both sides, but recently they seem determined to burn every bridge they have ever crossed. I empathize with them, as there is apparently considerable pain, but alienating every online person who ever considered one a friend is an unnecessarily negative and harmful approach to take.
The trap was sprung by the intended prey, Cam. DrW was my target and he was gracious enough to play his role perfectly. Even down to claiming I missed his post on page one despite his invalidating that concession in a response to me.
Old overconfident former LDS priest holders cock sure of their rightness are delightful playthings. Even more so when engaging in self-aggrandizing hypocrisy while being indignant about self-aggrandizing hypocrisy.
Anyway, I thought Res deserved some vindication even if he never returns to these salty, salty shores.
What’s the nuance I’m missing here, Honor? I’ll have to go back to page 1 and do a better job at tracking how the discussion unfolded, I think.
- Doc
Starting around page 20-ish you can just read the exchanges between DrW and Res. In those exchanges there was a bit of back and forth about databases, incidents vs accidents, what could be ruled out and what was still possible. And in the way internet arguments tend to go, positions were calcified and hackles were raised. By the time of the reply quoted above, DrW was dismissing even the possibility of an inciting incident beyond Russell M. Nelson's imagination or having watched too much television.
the dishonored honor wrote:
... good to hear from you. I just happen to have a plate of dicks for you to chomp on.
...
Hmmm, yummy, yummy dicks.
...The trap was sprung by the intended prey, Cam....Old overconfident former LDS priest holders cock sure of their rightness are delightful playthings.
...There seems to be something really serious going on with the poster who said that. In years past, there was always an attempt by this poster to understand an argument from both sides, but recently they seem determined to burn every bridge they have ever crossed. I empathize with them, as there is apparently considerable pain, but alienating every online person who ever considered one a friend is an unnecessarily negative and harmful approach to take.
You mean I didn't agree with DrW's handling of the facts and returned his insults rather than just accepting his pilots licence made him right about something? If that was burning a bridge, whatever it was connected to wasn't worth visiting in the first place.
I had the occasion to fly on a small Gulfstream a few times between DC and Bragg for *reasons* and this is what it was like on the inside:
I guess you could call that an aisle, but it was more like a bit of space between the passengers. Luckily no one was gassy on my flights.
- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
so I was exactly right.
