DiscussMormonism.com

Gabriel wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:22 pm

Bill Reel and RFM will broadcasting today at 5:20 PST.

Watch "Mormonism LIVE: 033: President Nelson's Flight of Death" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/fz4iQk1M9l4

Interesting. They must have really done a lot of digging to get to the facts of this story. It will be interesting to see what we can add to this thread from their original research.

I’d say synthesizing 82 pages for the uninitiated audience is value add enough.

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:32 pm

DrW wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:13 pm

Me too. I've flown some two million miles over more than 50 years on dozens of different airlines in scores of countries and I have never heard a pilot say anything about the "point of no return". And I would venture to guess that no one reading this post has heard those words from a pilot either.

DrW, maybe you never heard a pilot say this with respect to reaching the "half way" point because the PNR, or "point of no return," has a specific meaning for pilots, and that meaning is specifically NOT the half-way point. Does Nelson mean to say his pilot was an idiot? If you have a reference to pilot training manuals from the 1970s, that might be helpful. Evidently, pilots routinely calculated the PNR for flight plans, based on wind, fuel, load, other airports, etc. Visually, PNR would be something like 60-80% of the way to destination, depending on various factors.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/point_of_no_return
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/point-of-no-return
https://www.avfacts.com.au/editorial/pnr/default.asp
https://code7700.com/psr.htm
https://www.airsafaris.com.au/general_information/pnrcp.htm

Maybe Nelson learned the term a year after his flight while reading this 1977 book, "Joseph Smith, Martyr, Prophet of God" published by Deseret Book. In this book's usage, it would imply half-way across the perilous river.
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Jo ... frontcover

You are correct, Dr. Moore. Wind speed and direction at altitude, in-route weather systems (e.g. thunder storms that may require detours) and aircraft gross wright are primary factors in fuel burn per route mile, and thus in determining a point of no return.

However, the purpose was to explain why the difference between the movie (open ocean all the way from HNL to SFO with no in-route alternates, so halfway is a good estimate), and having two alternate airports along the SLC to St. George route, made a set point of no return in the latter case pretty much irrelevant. The other factors you mentioned with regard to calculating the PNR would not have added anything to the argument.

I recall in WWII documentaries on the bombings by US on Japan,pilots or voiceovers said that some of the planes would not get back to their carriers/airfields once they flew X miles due to fuel usage - thus alternate airfields or ditching could occur.
I doubt the death flight of Nellie had a fuel problem!!
II could understand Nellie not hearing anything else from the pilot because that hysterical woman was screaming her head off while Nellie calmly thought of immediate dying and Paradise.
What a load of BS is his tall tale is!

k

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:10 am

I’d say synthesizing 82 pages for the uninitiated audience is value add enough.

They did their best. Bill Reel and RFM got off to a slow start last evening https://youtu.be/fz4iQk1M9l4. Early on it was excruciating. They finally got their act together and pulled it off, though. Overall, better than expected, including the miraculous story of Jesus of Gnats-ereth.

It appears that they relied heavily (solely?) on this thread as their research. Starting with Dean Robber's first mention of "The High and the Mighty", to Dr. Moore's conclusive point by point comparison of the CAB report to Rusty's tall tale version of the story, they essentially developed the saga in the same way it has unfolded here. To their credit, they provided attribution where appropriate.

A flight instructor called in to the show and stated that he doubted the story as soon as the pilot got a miraculous "restart" on the left engine, which he agreed would never have failed in the first place. He also mentioned that there were lots of places that one could land a light twin in Utah west of I-15, casting serious doubt on claim of a "point of no return" announcement by the pilot.

Most interesting among the calls was the individual who opined that this whole mess would simply be ignored by the LDS Church unless the Utah mainstream media picked up on the story. One would think that, thanks to Dr. Moore and all the others who filed FOIA requests and trudged through reams of online NTSB and FAA documents, and our erstwhile friend ko9s who brought the CAB letter to light, there is more than enough documentary evidence for a credible investigative report about this Rusty fiasco. It's just the latest episode in what Reel and RFM pointed out as a long running MO of too many Church leaders in high office - to embellish or invent faith promoting stories to enhance their personal image for the faithful.

https://www.sltrib.com/tips/

https://ksltv.com/submit-a-tip/

https://kutv.com/contact/tipline

https://www.heraldextra.com/submit/

https://suindependent.com/submit-an-article/

https://posting.cityweekly.net/utah/ContactUs/Page

- Doc

DrW wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:32 pm

Overall, better than expected, including the miraculous story of Jesus of Gnats-ereth.

Agreed! RFM really brought the comic relief.

"Gnats-ereth"

"We've gone from stories on the plain to stories on a plane"

"The question comes down to whether you would buy a used car from this man"

Consig's closing argument caps the episode nicely:

Radio Free Mormon wrote: This is a dangerous game to be playing, President Nelson, when you are the president of the church that is based entirely on the idea that your founding prophet had some miraculous stories that happened to him, and he told these stories, right, and we have to believe him, that what he's recounting - like the first vision - actually happened the way he's recounting it. You don't want to be in a position where you are being caught with your britches down embellishing stories and adding facts to make them more miraculous. Because it's a short trip to the candy shop to say, "if you're doing it President Nelson, why should I think that Joseph Smith did not do the same thing?"
(at about the 1:26:00 mark)

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:36 pm

DrW wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:32 pm

Overall, better than expected, including the miraculous story of Jesus of Gnats-ereth.

Agreed! RFM really brought the comic relief.

"Gnats-ereth"

"We've gone from stories on the plain to stories on a plane"

"The question comes down to whether you would buy a used car from this man"

Consig's closing argument caps the episode nicely:

Radio Free Mormon wrote: This is a dangerous game to be playing, President Nelson, when you are the president of the church that is based entirely on the idea that your founding prophet had some miraculous stories that happened to him, and he told these stories, right, and we have to believe him, that what he's recounting - like the first vision - actually happened the way he's recounting it. You don't want to be in a position where you are being caught with your britches down embellishing stories and adding facts to make them more miraculous. Because it's a short trip to the candy shop to say, "if you're doing it President Nelson, why should I think that Joseph Smith did not do the same thing?"
(at about the 1:26:00 mark)

The other thought that will pop in to members heads is "If Nelson is lying about this simple anecdote, what else is he currently lying about..."

He seems to be defensive about his quick marriage to Wendy after Dantzel died…

The other thought that will pop in to members heads is "If Nelson is lying about this simple anecdote, what else is he currently lying about..."

The thought would never pop into their heads that Nelson would lie, only that anti-Mormons are desperate to defame the Lord's anointed.