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@:45 you see how a catastrophic engine failure looks on a Piper Navajo

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dKTCiG5T1Ig

That oil coming out of the casing could be what Russell M. Nelson saw and exaggerated.

@1:13 the pilot mentions feathering the left engine’s props and that they “have plenty of power here” - probably from the right engine that’s operating normally

@1:53 oil all over the left engine casing

- Doc

DrW wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:59 pm

With regard to "out of control" part, Russell M. Nelson's description of the spiral death dive in more than one of his descriptions left the clear impression that the pilot had lost control of the aircraft and was desperately fighting to restart the left engine, regain control, and save the day.

My main problem upthread with the death spiral dive described Russell M. Nelson was this: with both engines out, as he claimed, the pilot would have been wasting altitude that could have been used to reach an airport (new heading would have been provided by ATC as as a matter of course in response to the declaration of an emergency).

In fact, I count 7 ways in which Nelson paints "certain death" from this experience, and it's the sum of all 7 that is the lie, regardless whether Nelson believes any one of them individually in his mind:

1) the engine explosion (implies deadly emergency)
2) the fire and fiery oil (implies deadly emergency)
3) the spiral, plummeting dive (implies impending crash)
4) the last minute engine restart before crashing (implies impending crash)
5) pilot regained control and pulled up before crashing (implies impending crash)
6) the emergency field landing (implies potential for crash landing)
and
7) the woman screaming hysterically and uncontrollably (serving as a key eyewitness to Nelson's certain death narrative)

Most of (1)-(6) are "vivid" recollections consistent in all of Nelson's retellings, and (7) is present in almost of all of them to support his narrative with a key eyewitness.

(1)-(7) collectively comprise the lie about “certain death” vs truth (illogically scared?). Why even bother? Because otherwise the story is boring. And less effective. That was Dunn’s very motivation too.

ETA found one more, 6 to 7

azflyer wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:43 am

If you map the flight path, they would have been at least 20 miles south of Delta at the time of the engine roughness / failure.

I don't agree with this. Please see my detailed flight plan right up in the post above this. Here is the link to the flight plan I believe they would have followed in skyvector.

https://skyvector.com/?ll=39.0049561439 ... DTA%20KSGU

Delta VOR is not halfway in miles, but it is the last main marker, and it is, in my opinion, the most likely place to make the 1/2 way announcement. Also, if they were 20 miles south of Delta VOR, they probably would have landed at Fillmore. That would have been the closer airport.

AZ,
Redraw the map with only DTA as a waypoint. The flight path is now virtually a straight line from SLC to SGU, meaning they'd have flown over DTA en route.

Now, you'll see that SLC > DTA is 92 nautical miles and DTA > SGU is 144 nautical miles. Take the difference of 52 nautical miles, divide by 2, and add the resulting 26 nautical miles to the SLC > DTA path and you'll see that the half-way point, or "point of no return" per Nelson's "vivid" memory, is roughly 26 miles south-southwest of Delta airport.

In other words, the pilot's halfway announcement will have been ~26 miles (I said ~20 miles above, but your map is more precise than the Google map I used). Even if the engine failed immediately at half-way and the plane turned 180 degrees around instantly, there would have been 26 miles to slow and descent. At full cruising speed this is ~15 minutes of flying. It may have been a few minutes after half-way, and each minute must be doubled because they flew and had to backtrack for each of those minutes. Anyway, all of this is to say that there was at least 10 minutes and probably more like 15-20 minutes of controlled descent flying before landing at DTA.

Moksha wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:41 pm

At the MD&D board, they've painted a picture of the Delta airport being indistinguishable from a farmer's field (unpaved runway, crops, and perhaps animals). Was any of that true or was it just apologetics?

I know your comment is partly sarcasm, but there's a real point here about assessing truth telling.

"In a farmer's field" invokes many images, not least of which is the image of another brush with death because making an emergency landing in a farmer's field is no joke. The newspapers of the time (1970s) have a number of front page reports of small planes with failed engines that actually did land in farmer's fields AND flipped over on the landing, killing or injuring passengers.

"At an airport immediately next to a farmer's field" is rightly labeled as a Dunn-ish embellishment, relative to "in a farmer's field" and the MD&D folks who want to nit pick the critics on this point are truly missing the forest for the trees. As I mentioned a few comments above, Nelson found no fewer than 6 ways to underscore the "near death" premise of this flight and it's the sum of those 6 embellishments that turn what might be minor inconsistencies into an actual lie.

Fifth Columnist wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:32 pm

Moksha wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:41 pm

At the MD&D board, they've painted a picture of the Delta airport being indistinguishable from a farmer's field (unpaved runway, crops, and perhaps animals). Was any of that true or was it just apologetics?

I grew up in the Delta area and drove by the airport frequently. The airport is not the equivalent of a farmer's field. In fact, a relative in Delta owned a plane and flew from the airport all the time (I believe this was in the 50s and 60s). I have pictures of him standing by his plane at the airport. I will see if I can find them. I also seem to recall that when the Intermountain Power Project was built they expanded the airport so the corporate jets could land there. However, this likely would have occurred just after Nelson's death spiral event.

Absolutely it may feel like you're standing in a farmer's field. But then again, I think everyone is capable of distinguishing an airstrip in the middle of farm fields from a farmer's field. I hope this apologetic doesn't end up serving as one of the stronger apologetics, or else Nelson's story is in real danger of Dunn-ification as the MD&D board puts it.

Dr. Moore,

We're speculating about what "half-way" means right now. But it is my opinion, that if they were at the literal half way point (as you suggest), they probably would have diverted to Fillmore airport, as that would have been closer. Fillmore is also right next to the interstate, which makes everything easier. Delta is a little more out in the sticks. Both Runways are about the same size (one mile long x 75' wide).

But I understand that point you're making about "half-way". I think it's reasonable to say that they were on the South side of Delta airport, and were probably somewhere between 10 and 30 miles South of the airport.

Doc,

Great find on the engine failure video!

azflyer wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:40 pm

SUPER LONG - READ TO THE END BEFORE YOU ROAST ME - IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE WHOLE THING, JUST READ #13.

(snip)

Hi AZ,
Responding to this post separately from the above, how does your summary compare with mine (from page 80 of this thread)?

azflyer wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:32 am

Dr. Moore,

We're speculating about what "half-way" means right now. But it is my opinion, that if they were at the literal half way point (as you suggest), they probably would have diverted to Fillmore airport, as that would have been closer. Fillmore is also right next to the interstate, which makes everything easier. Delta is a little more out in the sticks. Both Runways are about the same size (one mile long x 75' wide).

But I understand that point you're making about "half-way". I think it's reasonable to say that they were on the South side of Delta airport, and were probably somewhere between 10 and 30 miles South of the airport.

I see your point. Was Fillmore in operation in 1976? And if they were not at least halfway to SGU as the crow flies, then how do you explain the one and only "vivid" recollection Nelson has of pilot communication with passengers?

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:10 am

I see your point. Was Fillmore in operation in 1976? And if they were not at least halfway to SGU as the crow flies, then how do you explain the one and only "vivid" recollection Nelson has of pilot communication with passengers?

Fillmore, Delta and Nephi airports were all built during ww2 to support the war effort.