The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

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DrStakhanovite
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

Post by DrStakhanovite »

Hey Huck!
huckelberry wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:31 pm
I am completely puzzled that anybody would see this as watered down or altered.
As someone who has participated in and moderated numerous interfaith dialogues, I learned one very valuable lesson while listening to primarily Muslims and Christians speak to each other about their respective faiths: When one side begins to explain what they want the other side to know about their faith, it never really reflected what that other side really wanted to know.

Patrick Mason’s testimony is really more about what he thinks is important. The emphasis that Mason gives comes across as watered down because he has pretty much abandoned the exclusive claim to important truths and gives no time explaining the impeccable rationality of becoming a Mormon and instead opted to talk about his religion like people talk about Herbalife.

huckelberry wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 10:31 pm
I am puzzled as to why universalist is applied to Mormon. I do not remember the presenter claiming such. It is true Mormon hope is spread wider than hardcore Calvinists but it is the peculiar mechanism that is particular to Mormonism.But Mormon theory does have terestial kingdom folks and some though perhaps few stuck with the devil and his kingdom of hell. It qualifies as somewhat or nearer to universalism than some theories.
Compared to historical Christianity’s traditional soteriologies, Mormonism is fairly Universalistic with a few rare exceptions and an odd qualification or two. It may not match up point for point with the Universalism found in the Liberal traditions of Christianity, but is far closer to it than anything else not explicitly heretical within Christendom.
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DrStakhanovite
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

Post by DrStakhanovite »

Aristotle Smith wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:39 pm
It's the minimal apologia for having been born on the I-15 corridor. It will keep some people satisfied for another generation, maybe two.
I think this is the most accurate assessment. If contemporary Sociology of Religion has taught me anything, it has taught me that modern churches who put themselves in some kind of opposition to the rest of society and maintain that tension, said church will grow. Churches that begin to reflect contemporary values of a secular society will always struggle to maintain membership, much less grow.

The "Mainline" Protestant Churches of the 20th century are already in hospice care having long ago been eclipsed by the Word of Faith movement, Independent Fundamentalists, etc, etc.
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huckelberry
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

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Lem wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 11:03 pm
Is is altered from when I was last in several decades ago. There was absolutely no "we do not know everything," only I KNOW (insert various Mormon-centric statements.) also, there was NEVER an acceptance that we were Christian, we were a "peculiar people," and we were proud of it. Other Christian religions were disparaged as being misguided, deluded, etc. And while yes, Mormon community has long been an idea, it was also carefully trained into us as youth that no one else could do "community" like us Mormons. the GA who not that long ago said "where will you go? What will you do?" to those leaving was directly tapping into that exclusiveness.

Of course, none of this is right or good, but I do find it interesting that as ideas evolve, there is a persistent "we were never at war with EastAsia" mentality.

I'm not speaking of you personally, Huck, as I think it's very common to not catch those changes as they slowly evolve, but I really do see an evolvement, and a definite intent on the part of lds leaders to not recognize those changes (which would be far more healthy), in favor of insisting we have always been that way, as though admitting growth and change is somehow a weakness.
Lem, I think I am exploring impressions, I do not know if mine is correct. I have heard people comment from time to time about change, mainstreaming, I have been curious about what people are seeing. It has been 50 years since I attended LDS church services(a few funerals excepted). The church I know thought it important to be a peculiar people with an exclusive connection to the genuine Christianity. Other churches were limited if not corrupt. To leave the LDS would be to leave the light and enter corruption and danger.

I did not see anything in the fireside testimonial which contradicted any of that. I guess it is so ingrained that I assume it is still there unless there is clear contradiction. A Mormon saying that they are a follower of Jesus would not mean to my expectation that the Mormon thought other churches safe. To say there was a restoration of priesthood, covenants and ordinances maintains the large gulf between Mormons and other varieties of Christians.

The one thing I have heard which sounds like a change is people claiming they never heard Joseph had more wives than one. I still think such people would have to be pretty disconnected.Nobody removed the polygamy instructions from the D and C.
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

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Did people notice that this testimonial was a fireside for Mormons who had some concern for other Mormons having some faith struggles. It was not a presentation for missionary efforts. It was not for teaching nonMormons what Mormons find important.
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

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huckelberry wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:00 am
I have heard people comment from time to time about change, mainstreaming, I have been curious about what people are seeing.
Me too! I appreciate your comments very much in that respect. There are seems to be even more regional variance within countries than I was aware of.
...The one thing I have heard which sounds like a change is people claiming they never heard Joseph had more wives than one. I still think such people would have to be pretty disconnected. Nobody removed the polygamy instructions from the D and C.
I've noticed that, too! I had an interesting exchange online with a younger member, maybe late 20s? They were positive Smith did not practice polygamy. I didn't ask too many questions as it was in a private reddit, but they were willing to tell me that they believed what the Hales (?) wrote (If I recall correctly grindael debunked their work many times), and they did NOT believe the official church essay was correct about Smith's multiple wives. It was a surreal moment.
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

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Tim wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:22 pm
  • Baptism for the Dead makes us fully universalist (no one goes to Hell)
True, but don't forget about what supposedly happens to those who don't make it to the Celestial Kingdom....

In any case, it occurs to me that the testimony is something that you seldom see in Mopologetics anymore. Back in the day, they used to get ridiculed over this: critics used to actually accuse the old FARMS crew of merely "bearing their testimony" when it came to the most problematic issues. I always detected a lot of over-the-top sensitivity to that particular accusation.

There's "Mormon Scholars Testify," but it's hard to see that as serious in any kind of devotional sense. It's mainly there to show believing LDS that, yes, even smart people with PhDs believe in the Church! Still, I think that many/most of the testimonials on MST are likely sincere, and for the most part, that sort of wide-eyed, lump-in-the-throat sentimentality is generally missing from the Mopologists' work.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Tim
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

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huckelberry wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 2:13 am
Did people notice that this testimonial was a fireside for Mormons who had some concern for other Mormons having some faith struggles. It was not a presentation for missionary efforts. It was not for teaching nonMormons what Mormons find important.
Yes, I wasn't directing people to the Fireside as a whole. Only his concluding testimony. I wasn't claiming Mason was advocating all of my bullet points. Only that he was a signpost on the road to a destination.
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

Post by Gadianton »

Welcome back, Tim. It's good to see you again.

I think that's a fair list. How do we maximize the inflow of donations? That's the only question the church leaders really want an answer to.
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

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I don't think people want to contribute to or sacrifice for a milquetoast organization that celebrates mediocrity. The Q15 magicians need to get to work and come up with something spectacular or continue to plan for membership losses and more attention to investment prowess.

People want to know that they are better than the rest. They want to be able to look down on the little people who don't "know" like they do. They want magic. They want illusion. They want their leaders to imply that they have seen Jesus without evidence because it is eternally too sacred to tell and if the member is righteous he/she can also have a second annointing with the big humble cheese. So, I just can't see the "one and only true church" going away completely. There is power in claiming to know secrets.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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Tim
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

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Dr Exiled wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:30 am
I don't think people want to contribute to or sacrifice for a milquetoast organization that celebrates mediocrity.
Have you been to an Episcopalian church lately? ;)

As a formula for long term success and viability it's awful. As a means of keeping comfortable people comfortable, it works.
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