The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

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Tim
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

Post by Tim »

Gadianton wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:31 am
Welcome back, Tim. It's good to see you again.
Glad to finally be able to log in again. Thanks for the welcome.
Dr Exiled
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

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Tim wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:46 pm
Dr Exiled wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:30 am
I don't think people want to contribute to or sacrifice for a milquetoast organization that celebrates mediocrity.
Have you been to an Episcopalian church lately? ;)

As a formula for long term success and viability it's awful. As a means of keeping comfortable people comfortable, it works.
I guess my point is that it would be difficult to demand such a high sacrifice on the one hand and admit that the church is just another ordinary church on the other. I don't think Episcopalians have to pay 10% or devote as much time to the church as Mormons are required to do. However, believing in some sort of superiority here and in the hereafter softens the sacrifice blow a little bit. However, most are already used to the sacrifice and perhaps would continue as the church comes down from the mountain to be with the rest of the world.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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Dr Moore
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

Post by Dr Moore »

There's a weird passive-aggressive, have cake and eat it too, being executed by leaders of the church.

It's standard operating procedure for local lay leaders (Bishops and SPs) to embrace the sort of testimonial you outlined. I have several friends who have actually been encouraged to remain members in good standing, with TR's and all, after expressing extreme nuance and even disbelief, confess to being unwilling to pay tithing to the church based on sincere moral compass reasons, etc.

But then, we never hear this type of diluted message endorsed by Q15 members. Conference and broadcasts are still jammed with talk of one-and-only priesthood and salvation, sad heaven, and claims of literal this-and-that (especially the one true church / one true prophet).

This model shows up in spades with the ongoing tension between BYU faculty and church leaders over clarity for LGBTQ dating and affectionate expression.
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

Post by huckelberry »

DrStakhanovite wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 12:59 am
Aristotle Smith wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 8:39 pm
It's the minimal apologia for having been born on the I-15 corridor. It will keep some people satisfied for another generation, maybe two.
I think this is the most accurate assessment. If contemporary Sociology of Religion has taught me anything, it has taught me that modern churches who put themselves in some kind of opposition to the rest of society and maintain that tension, said church will grow. Churches that begin to reflect contemporary values of a secular society will always struggle to maintain membership, much less grow.

The "Mainline" Protestant Churches of the 20th century are already in hospice care having long ago been eclipsed by the Word of Faith movement, Independent Fundamentalists, etc, etc.
Stakhanovite, I could not help but have a bit of puzzle and curiosity about this comment. I have a hard time not seeing word of faith and American fundamentalists as reflecting a full unquestioning acceptance of American consumerist values, have faith and get more money.Have faith and have a blessed protected life. Is it possible that churches that question peoples first values will have some growth problems. Well maybe it is not quite that simple.

I have long thought that an important mainline problem was a drift into a kind of worship which was largely nostalgia for a time when people actually believed those old Christian ideas. We sort of believe some of it now and like the social cohesion. A growing portion of people found other activities like baseball ,golf, taking a walk more spiritually nourishing and generating better social cohesion. They decided to forget the mainline churches.

Some people seized the opposite possibility seeking extra emotional belief, inerrant Bible, six day creation, health and money, Trump forever president etc.

The question opening this thread,which path will Mormons take is very much like the question for Protestants. i am not sure If I understand which direction Tom favors or expects to happen. I find myself thinking of Exiled comments about what is necessary to keep the people in church paying tithing. I find myself hoping he overdrew the negative. I am stuck feeling sure his dark image has some substantial validity. Frankly I find myself having a hard time thinking of a Christian rejection of contemporary culture which is not largely a pile to stand on feeling superior. (isnt ii great to not be queer or trans or a lazy liberal socialist)
huckelberry
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

Post by huckelberry »

Tim wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:46 pm
Dr Exiled wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:30 am
I don't think people want to contribute to or sacrifice for a milquetoast organization that celebrates mediocrity.
Have you been to an Episcopalian church lately? ;)

As a formula for long term success and viability it's awful. As a means of keeping comfortable people comfortable, it works.
Tim I find myself hoping to draw more clarification from you. I am unsure if you wish to hold your views close so they are not exposed or you assume folks share enough of your view that they know what you mean.

In this instance I am again puzzled. I would much rather sit through an Episcopalian service than a Mormon one. Of course not all Episcopalian services are going to be the same. You may be thinking of a bad one and I thinking of an inspiring one.

What are you hoping for for long term success? I gather you might not be entirely of the party here which sees long term success only as, or ideally as, the end of the Mormon church along with other churches.

You started saying four points are the direction you see the LDS church going. Do you see that as a good thing or as decay? Do you think the LDS church is leaving traditional docrines and beliefs behind? Is that a good thing?
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Aristotle Smith
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

Post by Aristotle Smith »

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huckelberry
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

Post by huckelberry »

Aristotle Smith wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:08 am

I'm not Tim, but I have been to an Episcopalian service. Episcopalians are a vanishing breed, so moving towards an Episcopalian model is not a long term viable one.......
......I don't really have any hope for the LDS church. The LDS church has made many motions since the 1990's to identify as Christian. I use that word not because I want to enter into the "Are Mormons Christians" debate, but because growing up LDS I KNEW I wasn't a Christian. Christians were those other people we had to convert to the one true faith.

I don't think this has been successful, neither internally amongst Mormons, nor in having Christians see Mormons as such. For the first, I offer my oldest son as a prime example of that failure. He was raised in the LDS church during the time when the LDS church had already started heavily identifying as Christian. I overheard a conversation between my son and his Jewish friend. His Jewish friend called him a Christian (in his mind, if you celebrated Christmas, you were Christian). My son corrected him by saying, "No, I'm Mormon". t.

It hasn't been successful externally either because the LDS church leaders really cling heavily to distinctives that make rapproachment with orthodox Christianity difficult.
Aristotle, I am probably a bit unfamiliar with recent efforts to be seen as more Christian. I grew up thinking the church was the real Christian. I learned from folks like Talmage. The book is Jesus the Christ not Jesus the Mormon.

I was thinking that during the eighties and nineties there was expanded anti Mormon campaigns by Evangelicals. I suppose the church wondered what stratigies would be best to counter that. To emphasize the Christian foundation of the church would make sense. It would not make sense to drop LDS distinctives. I see no sign of such happening. Temples are not closing. Ordinances are not stopping. Temple covenants are not being discontinued. The LDS scriptures are not being put away.

I have heard that something called correlation has made classes more uniform. Sounds like a bore. I hear road shows have stopped with some other older traditional ward activities. Too bad.

The only thing I have heard giving Lds participation difficulties is the problem of what is true and what is not true. That of course has given other Christian denomination some difficulties as well. It would be at least part of what burdens Episcopalians.
huckelberry
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

Post by huckelberry »

continued in the morning,
Aristotle, I admit I was emotionally a bit shocked by your comments about rejecting the category Christian as a Mormon. With a little further reflection I realize that attitudes about the category could change place to place time to time, ward to ward, and family to family.

I think the pattern may have grown that for some Evangelicals they understand religious groups to be categorized , Buddhist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Jew , Mormon and then Christian. In that social context I could see Mormons inclining to avoid the category Christian.
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

Post by Philo Sofee »

My suspicion is that when the Evangelicals began accusing Mormons of having another Jesus, not the real one, was when the leaders woke up and said wait a minute, we gotta start being more like Christians if that is their strategy. It's why apologetics lasted exactly as long as it did, just long enough to destroy the Evangelicals, and now there is no point anymore to them.

I think Aristotle has hit the nail on the head, the leaders are simply phishing now for something that suits all. They won't find it, it doesn't exist. And its not like they NEED to keep having growth anymore. With their hundreds of billions, they have truly secured their security as an organization. The NEED for conversions is waning, in my opinion, directly because of that. They no longer need defenders in order to secure their continual existence, the money assures that hands down. I see this as why Mormonism is becoming more vanilla all the time, and it won't stop until they become cream pie instead of steak and eggs. They have their place, and ain't goin anywhere. It isn't even important actually, anymore, for them to have THE truth or not, just be good girls and boys and make daddy and mommy happy. That's not a negative, it's just how they are operating for now.
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Aristotle Smith
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Re: The Future of the Mormon Testimonial

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