Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

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Dr Moore
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Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Dr Moore »

If one talk rustled (Russelled?) the most feathers this conference, based on my social media groups the prize goes to Russell M. Nelson’s Sunday morning address.

You know, the one in which he encourages members to “choose to believe” and discourages doubters from “rehearsing” their doubts with other doubters. Such a sad setback when it comes to fostering intimacy among family and friends, in essence explicitly telling faithful members with questions not to discuss doubts with fellow questioning members. It’s Doubt Your Doubts 2.0: Doubt Your Doubters.

In it, Nelson opens with a well-worded logical assertion. He says, with reference to our individual losses and loneliness during the recent pandemic year:
“RMN” wrote: If you have responded to your trials with a stronger discipleship, this past year will not have been in vain.
What a bold statement! Since asserting the antecedent is logically fallacious, it cannot be said that “if the past year was not in vain, then you have responded to your trials with stronger discipleship.” LOL

I wonder if Nelson considered some of the other ways that the 99.8% of non-Mormon people found to make 2020 net out to positive? Perhaps that train of thought may have provided more helpful content for his speech, rather than what he went with — his transparently harmful directive designed to eliminate safe spaces for questioning members to share and validate one another. Ironically, such a directive seems awfully darn un-Christlike.
Last edited by Dr Moore on Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Moksha
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Moksha »

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These Central Utah Elders heed the advice. They are in the Church for the long haul.

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Lem
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Lem »

Wow. So that Saturday morning talk I heard about was just to lull people?
"It is not in keeping with the teachings of the church or gospel to shun or exclude those who are not of our faith"

- Gary E Stevenson, April 2021 Conference, Saturday Morning
"choosing to work the job she loved and elevated to the end." -honorentheos
Philo Sofee
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Philo Sofee »

Dr. Moore
You know, the one in which he encourages members to “choose to believe” and discourages doubters from “rehearsing” their doubts with other doubters. Such a sad setback when it comes to fostering intimacy among family and friends, in essence explicitly telling faithful members with questions not to discuss doubts with fellow questioning members. It’s Doubt Your Doubts 2.0.
OK, of course, I did not watch any conference. I was quite busy enjoying my Hebrew lessons instead, a much more enjoyable and valuable use of my time.

But an idea just struck me rather forcefully just now in reading your point here. I'm sincerely trying to put myself in Nelson's place, AS a bonafide prophet. If I knew........if I ***KNEW*** I could get revelation for serious problems (doubt considered one of these), and I could talk to Jesus, because that's......well........what I do as a prophet in Mormonism, duh, I would say something along the lines of - "My beloved brothers and sisters. In this world of doubt and heart ache, of questioning, and wondering what are we to do, I am pleased to ask you to discuss these doubts with me and my Brethren the Apostles, because we have Jesus who can give us help here directly if we do not grasp your points of doubt and problems with the doctrine of Jesus Christ. You can ask us anything, and we are preparing now an entire magazine for you to send your doubts to, and we will provide answers after we talk to Jesus and see what he says of issues we probably can't help out with. We are producing an open platform for all questions and doubts to be shared and shared alike, along with our answers from Jesus as he communicates to us His Divine Wisdom in all matters you have doubts with. He being our loving Savior and elder Brother, and having all knowledge is more than happy to provide timely and sage advice, wisdom, and scriptural answers to any kind of question you may have."

This entire idea of trying to tell doubters to not talk to other doubters just doesn't pass the smell test to me. Lookit, lets be honestly real here. If I have any questions on physics, or I run into someone who sincerely and seriously doubts atoms exist, etc., I have a very good friend right here (Physics Guy, and Dr. W, etc.) who I can turn to and ask questions and learn from, and then SHARE his information. We are in direct contact online. He is an expert, and we can keep physics 101 questions and provide viable and real answers, not turn around and tell those who have questions do not talk about it!

The very stance Nelson has taken truly, without an antagonism whatsoever toward him, shows me he really isn't sure if he talks to Jesus and has a pipeline. That is astonishing to me that he says do not talk about them, and yet ALSO does not say something along the lines of the above point I am making. Look I have already told several people about this group here, the various scientists, mathematicians, and historians and if anyone needs any kind of question answered I am more than happy to present it here, and I know we can work out the ideas. I am truly GRATEFUL for this! Wouldn't Nelson also be truly GRATEFUL for the help if Jesus really was there for him?!

It just seems odd and seriously off the stance he has taken. It gives no assurance whatsoever that there is anyone there, day or night giving him actual instructive revelations that matter to people. Everyone has doubts, some are seriously serious. You mean to tell me Jesus wouldn't mind helping out with at least those by telling Nelson?! I cannot fathom he wouldn't! But, I mean, sincerely and as humbly and as comforting as I can post this, it does not appear that Jesus is even real and discussing anything with Nelson. He is on his own. I feel sad for him being cornered into making this kind of just......well......improbable stance, IF JESUS IS REALLY THERE AND WILLING. It is astonishing that Jesus, knowing all, is not willing to pitch in and share some actual knowledge on so many issues isn't it? I am NOT trying to antagonize here. I am NOT mocking or pointing fingers and laughing here in this post. I am sincere. The underlying issue appears to me is Jesus, based on everything the church has ever taught since Joseph Smith, OUGHT TO BE THERE for the PROPHET when in need, and Jesus right now, today, without question, sincerely, honestly, as realistically as I can possibly say this IS IN DIRE NEED WITHIN MORMONISM.

And yet Nelson can only come up with something so inept, so lousy, and uncomforting, so unhelpful as don't talk to anyone else who doubts?!
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Dr Moore
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

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Lem wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:54 pm
Wow. So that Saturday morning talk I heard about was just to lull people?
"It is not in keeping with the teachings of the church or gospel to shun or exclude those who are not of our faith"

- Gary E Stevenson, April 2021 Conference, Saturday Morning
Wanting to have it both ways, of course. There is sad heaven, but it's totally happy! Importantly, you must not rehearse reasons for doubting with one another, yet you should minister and care for one another in a high and holy way!

I thought RFM and J. Streeter's recent bit (starting around the 1h10min mark) hit the nail squarely on its head. Streeter and RFM walk the listener through the devastating personal and social impact of "this but that" teaching methods embraced so fully by LDS church leaders, paralleling the model with the breaking of Winston in 1984, in which he is shocked repeatedly until finally answering correctly, "I DON'T KNOW," to the question "what is 2+2?"
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Dr Moore
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Dr Moore »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:34 pm
It just seems odd and seriously off the stance he has taken. It gives no assurance whatsoever that there is anyone there, day or night giving him actual instructive revelations that matter to people. Everyone has doubts, some are seriously serious. You mean to tell me Jesus wouldn't mind helping out with at least those by telling Nelson?! I cannot fathom he wouldn't! But, I mean, sincerely and as humbly and as comforting as I can post this, it does not appear that Jesus is even real and discussing anything with Nelson. He is on his own.
I have heard Oaks enjoy a chuckle alongside Ballard while discussing the notion that for many questions, "there are no answers." This out may work once or twice, and that would be fine. But it's been nearly 200 years of pattern behavior, mostly hidden from rank and file members. And now with information readily accessible, the pattern is exposed for what it is and people are voting with their feet. Much of the grasping behavior we see is typical and well documented behavior from leaders of dying companies.
consiglieri
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by consiglieri »

My take on this comment by President Nelson is you should not mention your doubts to ANYONE.

Rehearsing your doubts with others may sound more defensible.

But I think it’s the same thing.

It also serves as warning to not listen to anyone express their doubts.

It’s a two-fer!
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by IHAQ »

Here is the transcript of what Nelson said...
Second, choose to believe in Jesus Christ. If you have doubts about God the Father and His Beloved Son or the validity of the Restoration or the veracity of Joseph Smith’s divine calling as a prophet, choose to believe and stay faithful. Take your questions to the Lord and to other faithful sources. Study with the desire to believe rather than with the hope that you can find a flaw in the fabric of a prophet’s life or a discrepancy in the scriptures. Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters. Allow the Lord to lead you on your journey of spiritual discovery.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Apply that same methodology to Scientology, and you'll likely end up believing that's true too. It's the methodology a leader of a cult relies on for gaining and controlling followers. It's why affinity fraud is so prevalent in Mormons. It's why Doomsday cultists can reframe and maintain their belief long after their Messiah's claimed date for global destruction has come and gone.

What happened to:
If we have truth, [it] cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed.
J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1983, p. 24
Res Ipsa
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Res Ipsa »

IHAQ wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:57 am
Here is the transcript of what Nelson said...
Second, choose to believe in Jesus Christ. If you have doubts about God the Father and His Beloved Son or the validity of the Restoration or the veracity of Joseph Smith’s divine calling as a prophet, choose to believe and stay faithful. Take your questions to the Lord and to other faithful sources. Study with the desire to believe rather than with the hope that you can find a flaw in the fabric of a prophet’s life or a discrepancy in the scriptures. Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters. Allow the Lord to lead you on your journey of spiritual discovery.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Apply that same methodology to Scientology, and you'll likely end up believing that's true too. It's the methodology a leader of a cult relies on for gaining and controlling followers. It's why affinity fraud is so prevalent in Mormons. It's why Doomsday cultists can reframe and maintain their belief long after their Messiah's claimed date for global destruction has come and gone.

What happened to:
If we have truth, [it] cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not truth, it ought to be harmed.
J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years. Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1983, p. 24
Thanks for tracking down the quote. I think this is the most cult-like quote I’ve read in awhile. This whole “choose to believe” theme steps up the guilt and stress on anyone who doubts. Too many people who leave the Church are wounded in the process. Statements like this insure that the harm will continue.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” -- Voltaire
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Dr Moore
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Dr Moore »

This is the same talk in which Nelson labels those who doubt or leave the church as “lazy learners and lax disciples.”

Sheesh, as if hard conversations weren’t already hard enough.
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