Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

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Res Ipsa
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Res Ipsa »

cinepro wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:02 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:09 pm
Well, he refers to lazy learners and lax disciples. In the context of his talk, who does he mean? Or are you completely baffled? ;)
From your understanding of the talk, if you asked RMN these two questions, how do you think he would answer:

1. Are all exMos "lazy learners"?

2. Are any members of the Church "lazy learners"?
Not relevant. What’s relevant is what he meant at the time. Not how he might answer today after feedback and reflection. The implication is clear, at least for those who “chose” not to believe and resigned instead.
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” -- Voltaire
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Moksha »

Okay, last time before dress rehearsals. I'll start with the line, "To be told the truth or not to be told the truth...". Then you start your line, "But we're Mormons, have we, not sufficient truth without knowing what actually happened?" Try to make it louder and a bit more dramatic.
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by cinepro »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:47 am
Not relevant. What’s relevant is what he meant at the time. Not how he might answer today after feedback and reflection. The implication is clear, at least for those who “chose” not to believe and resigned instead.
If it helps, imagine that you got to see a pre-Conference copy of the talk, and were able to ask him privately.

The words seem pretty clear to me (other than not knowing what the definition of a "lazy learner" is). There's simply no way what he said could mean that all doubters are "lazy learners." You have to parse the paragraph beyond recognition (which apparently people are willing to do, assuming they've even read the quote to begin with.)
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Cinepro,

Its not important what the intent was, but rather how it landed. That's the legacy of a good or bad speech.

- doc
Clinton King commenting on SeN: "My (perhaps) uncommon personal opinion: I find it easier to doubt the accuracy of carbon dating than the historicity of the Book of Abraham narrative." Good, Lord.
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by malkie »

cinepro wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:37 am
Dr Moore wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:04 am
My view:
1. Yes
2. Yes
Interesting. Since "doubters" are included along with the lonely and ill, I'm understanding it that he wasn't referring to all doubters. Certainly, if he meant to say that all doubters (i.e. exMos) are "lazy learners" that would obviously be wrong.

But some of them...? :?
It may be "obviously wrong" to us - we know better.

At the same time, it may not be "obviously wrong" to those who are faithfully listening to a prophet's voice - and having their prejudices confirmed.
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Res Ipsa »

cinepro wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:25 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:47 am
Not relevant. What’s relevant is what he meant at the time. Not how he might answer today after feedback and reflection. The implication is clear, at least for those who “chose” not to believe and resigned instead.
If it helps, imagine that you got to see a pre-Conference copy of the talk, and were able to ask him privately.

The words seem pretty clear to me (other than not knowing what the definition of a "lazy learner" is). There's simply no way what he said could mean that all doubters are "lazy learners." You have to parse the paragraph beyond recognition (which apparently people are willing to do, assuming they've even read the quote to begin with.)
Cinepro, I honestly don’t know. I don’t know the man well enough to guess.

I think I mentioned context. The context is asserting that faith and belief are choices. If those with doubts kept them to them selves and choose to have faith, former Mormons would still be Mormons. In context, I think it’s clear,
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” -- Voltaire
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Moksha
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Moksha »

cinepro wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:37 am
Certainly, if he meant to say that all doubters (i.e. exMos) are "lazy learners" that would obviously be wrong.

But some of them...? :?
Maybe he meant to say that doubters were not paying strict attention in their Mormon Indoctrination class. If only they were allowed a morning coffee they might not have fallen into doubting the Book of Abraham.
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by IHAQ »

Here's the full context of "lazy learners"
My dear brothers and sisters, my call to you this Easter morning is to start today to increase your faith. Through your faith, Jesus Christ will increase your ability to move the mountains in your life,9 even though your personal challenges may loom as large as Mount Everest.

Your mountains may be loneliness, doubt, illness, or other personal problems. Your mountains will vary, and yet the answer to each of your challenges is to increase your faith. That takes work. Lazy learners and lax disciples will always struggle to muster even a particle of faith.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

It's clear he's referring to people who have failed to overcome loneliness, doubt, illness or other personal problems and lost faith in the Church. He's saying that the reason you have failed to overcome those mountains is because you were a lazy learner when it came to becoming faithful. He's saying the opposite of Bednar. Here Nelson is accusing people with problems of lacking the faith to be healed, previously Bednar accused people with problems of lacking the faith to not be healed.

What I find interesting with Nelson is that he's used the term "lazy learner" within a talk where he advocates people start with a pre determined position and then only use sources that are going to confirm that pre determined position in their study. That's the exact methodology of a lazy learner. Imagine scholars behaving that way, they would quite rightly be called out as lazy scholars.
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by IHAQ »

Nelson
Second, choose to believe in Jesus Christ. If you have doubts about God the Father and His Beloved Son or the validity of the Restoration or the veracity of Joseph Smith’s divine calling as a prophet, choose to believe and stay faithful. Take your questions to the Lord and to other faithful sources. Study with the desire to believe rather than with the hope that you can find a flaw in the fabric of a prophet’s life or a discrepancy in the scriptures. Stop increasing your doubts by rehearsing them with other doubters. Allow the Lord to lead you on your journey of spiritual discovery.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

Compare what Nelson is advocating, with the following description:
Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values.[1] People display this bias when they select information that supports their views, ignoring contrary information, or when they interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing attitudes. The effect is strongest for desired outcomes, for emotionally charged issues, and for deeply entrenched beliefs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Dr Moore »

It's so unfortunate because so many families and friendships will break down further as a result of Nelson's latest counsel.

He really does appear to believe that only the most orthodox members qualify as sufficiently faithful to earn a place in heaven. Everyone else is, evidently, on their way to apostacy and satan-service.

History will show Nelson to have done significant harm to any prospect of "tent widening." More so, I believe, than any LDS leader since Benson or Kimball.
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