Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

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cinepro
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by cinepro »

IHAQ wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:03 am
Here's the full context of "lazy learners"
Your mountains may be loneliness, doubt, illness, or other personal problems. Your mountains will vary, and yet the answer to each of your challenges is to increase your faith. That takes work. Lazy learners and lax disciples will always struggle to muster even a particle of faith.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... n?lang=eng

It's clear he's referring to people who have failed to overcome loneliness, doubt, illness or other personal problems and lost faith in the Church. He's saying that the reason you have failed to overcome those mountains is because you were a lazy learner when it came to becoming faithful.
Are you sure you're not affirming the consequent? Assuming those who "struggle to muster even a particle of faith" = "exMos", then he's saying "some lazy learners = those who have no faith/exMos".

But it does not logically follow that "all of those those who have no faith/exMos = lazy learners."
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Philo Sofee »

Cinepro
But it does not logically follow that "all of those those who have no faith/exMos = lazy learners."
I have thought about this all day long. I think this is the Mormon problem, they are full of pride and arrogance. They already have the truth, and therefore, anyone who doesn't follow them in their zeal they label negatively, make sly fun of, and look down their noses at.

But I don't see myself as their label, and in fact, I don't let their labels get me, I label myself. Had they maintained Joseph Smith's proper schedule of maintaining the School of the Prophets, learning the Bible languages, they would have some justification I suppose. Their own prophet they worship showed them the way and they lazied out of it! I see them as the lazy learners. Every single Mormon on the planet should be tri-lingual, at least, the 2 of 3 languages known being the Hebrew and Greek of the Bible. It IS, after all, an accepted book of scripture. Nelson is in no wise busier than Joseph Smith was, so what's his lazy assed excuse for not learning and teaching the biblical languages like Joseph Smith did? Why was the School of Prophets ever stopped and never started back up? Smith demonstrated the KEY, and these lazy dudes today continue to ignore it, just like all the former lazy prophets from Brigham Young on. Count me as unimpressed with Nelson's arrogance and own laziness.

I'm not lazy, I'm busy learning valid knowledge that is spiritually uplifting to me, and dynamically intellectual as well. Mormonism offers none of that. Oh sure, sure, they do Home Teaching, so there is that... :roll:

No, Mormonism is so dead intellectually it has nothing to offer knowledge wise to save us, which was the very central core of Joseph Smith's theological ideology. Mormonism went to fluff. I see no point in wasting my time working continually reading Sally, Dick, and Jane level materials for decades when I can turn to the rest of Israel, Judah, for great spiritual impact and learning. Judah is vastly superior to the lazy dough heads in the tribe of Joseph these days. Until Joseph gets off his lazy dead ass, I will thoroughly, and quite guilt free continue giving Judah the nod. It is absolutely wonderful. The lazy pop psychology of the Tribe of Joseph these days is such a miniscule fallow thinking it makes me laugh, especially when in its pride, it attempts to shame and intimidate instead of love, instruct, and enlarge our capacities. No thanks Joseph, Judah has my full attention.
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Dr Moore
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Dr Moore »

cinepro wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:27 pm
Are you sure you're not affirming the consequent? Assuming those who "struggle to muster even a particle of faith" = "exMos", then he's saying "some lazy learners = those who have no faith/exMos".

But it does not logically follow that "all of those those who have no faith/exMos = lazy learners."
Hi Cinepro,

Great question. It made me think.

First, I believe the premise of the logical assertion is deeply wrong to begin with, for two reasons at least. First, the idea that people who Nelson deems "lazy learners" will never muster a particle of faith. That isn't how Jesus framed things at all, and it isn't how faith works, in a traditional religious sense. In fact, less learning is generally equated with greater propensity for faith. Especially in the Book of Mormon.

Second, tying "lazy learners" with "lax disciples" is a dirty trick. Of course, Nelson might make a case that "lax disciples" (or, those who reject strict discipleship), do not display real faith. But these two unfortunate labels have no obvious relationship with each other. Except that they do link together, in Nelson's theology.

The underlying message, which Russell M. Nelson makes abundantly clear throughout this talk, and has done throughout his ministry, is that the only real learning that matters is spiritual revelation, and that kind learning only comes through strict discipleship.

So that's how Nelson links these labels together to make the assertion. What he is really saying, I believe, is that "if you are a lazy learner or lax disciple, you will never have real faith." Or rather, you will never show real faith. The visualization of this logic is two population circles in which the circle for "people with faith" and the circle for "lazy learners, lax disciples" are separate and non-overlapping.

Therefore, as constructed, Nelson presents a logical assertion that doesn't follow the type of "affirming the consequent" fallacy. That particular fallacy applies with you have, say, "all dogs hate cats." You can say, if you're a dog, then you hate cats. The antecedent is a small circle inside the consequent, a larger circle. So visually it's easy to see, "if you hate cats, you are a dog" is logically fallacious. Nelson has done the equivalent of saying "if you are a dog, then you are not a cat." Which of course is equally valid in reverse, "I'm a cat, therefore I'm not a dog."
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Gadianton »

Cinepro, the way he constructed the sentence you're right that lazy learner isn't necessarily all those who leave. And oddly, if we're hyper literal, it might not even be the majority or a large number, as he says "LL &LD...struggle to muster even a particle of faith". Out of all those who leave, if there's a bell curve of faith exercised, then his comment must refer to a small number near the tail.

But unless somewhere in that talk, or within some other resource he prepared, there is consideration for those disciplined and sincere learners who came to the unfortunate but honest conclusion that the Church isn't true, then my bet is on his manner of speaking being hyperbole, and even though the mechanics of the sentence don't insist all apostates are lazy learners, it's most likely, in my opinion, what he meant.
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Dr Moore »

Gadianton wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:57 am
Cinepro, the way he constructed the sentence you're right that lazy learner isn't necessarily all those who leave. And oddly, if we're hyper literal, it might not even be the majority or a large number, as he says "LL &LD...struggle to muster even a particle of faith".
Dean, Russell M. Nelson said "Lazy learners and lax disciples will always struggle to muster even a particle of faith."

It may be hyperbole, but he did say "always." So Nelson's teaching here is that those who are LL/LD cannot be in the circle of those with any real faith. It's a teaching of mutual exclusivity.
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by IHAQ »

Dr Moore wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:04 am
Gadianton wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:57 am
Cinepro, the way he constructed the sentence you're right that lazy learner isn't necessarily all those who leave. And oddly, if we're hyper literal, it might not even be the majority or a large number, as he says "LL &LD...struggle to muster even a particle of faith".
Dean, Russell M. Nelson said "Lazy learners and lax disciples will always struggle to muster even a particle of faith."

It may be hyperbole, but he did say "always." So Nelson's teaching here is that those who are LL/LD cannot be in the circle of those with any real faith. It's a teaching of mutual exclusivity.
Nelson is saying explicitly that if (using one of his stated examples) being ill causes your faith to dip or not grow, you're a lazy learner.
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by cinepro »

Gadianton wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:57 am
Cinepro, the way he constructed the sentence you're right that lazy learner isn't necessarily all those who leave. And oddly, if we're hyper literal, it might not even be the majority or a large number, as he says "LL &LD...struggle to muster even a particle of faith". Out of all those who leave, if there's a bell curve of faith exercised, then his comment must refer to a small number near the tail.

But unless somewhere in that talk, or within some other resource he prepared, there is consideration for those disciplined and sincere learners who came to the unfortunate but honest conclusion that the Church isn't true, then my bet is on his manner of speaking being hyperbole, and even though the mechanics of the sentence don't insist all apostates are lazy learners, it's most likely, in my opinion, what he meant.
I agree the statement is a word salad, and I think it's a little low to say that some people who lonely or ill lack faith because they are "lazy learners." I'm just amused at the group of exMos who read it as him saying "all exMos are lazy learners" and then rushed out to prove him wrong by telling the world just how un-lazy they are when it comes to learnin'!
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Dr Moore »

Good thought IHAQ.

I think what Nelson intended to communicate is a notion that unwillingness to have “more” faith makes one a lazy learner or a lax disciple.

So no matter what you learn, no matter how awful or objectionable to you, Nelson’s Mormonism a faith hamster wheel. If you ever get off, boom, you’re a lazy learner. Such a stupid mangled way of encouraging spiritual learning, when you think about it.

I mean, Mormonism asks people to have faith and seek their own inspiration (revelation). That’s a great lead and Mormons don’t bury it. But then the catch: you can never learn or educate yourself out of the church. And now, thanks to Nelson, we have a printed principle that says the moment you follow your instincts away from the church, you’re demoting as-defined “more faith”, and now you’re a lazy learner or a lax disciple. If you think on it, the whole argument is a weakly disguised take on heads I win, tails you lose.
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by IHAQ »

Dr Moore wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 4:17 am
Good thought IHAQ.

I think what Nelson intended to communicate is a notion that unwillingness to have “more” faith makes one a lazy learner or a lax disciple.

So no matter what you learn, no matter how awful or objectionable to you, Nelson’s Mormonism a faith hamster wheel. If you ever get off, boom, you’re a lazy learner. Such a stupid mangled way of encouraging spiritual learning, when you think about it.

I mean, Mormonism asks people to have faith and seek their own inspiration (revelation). That’s a great lead and Mormons don’t bury it. But then the catch: you can never learn or educate yourself out of the church. And now, thanks to Nelson, we have a printed principle that says the moment you follow your instincts away from the church, you’re demoting as-defined “more faith”, and now you’re a lazy learner or a lax disciple. If you think on it, the whole argument is a weakly disguised take on heads I win, tails you lose.
I have a thought that it’s even more basic a message. He’s saying that if you lose faith in the church, if you doubt the church and it’s leaders and subsequently reduce or stop activity or membership, it’s your fault. It’s classic 'blame the member' messaging. Nelson is a leader avoiding taking any responsibility for the dwindling membership and activity rates.
Last edited by IHAQ on Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nelson’s “don’t rehearse with other unbelievers” talk

Post by Moksha »

President Nelson could have been urging members to double down and concentrate on learning Church history.

Put your fingers to the keyboard, and on the Google bracket type in Mormon History, push along with Enter. Do not shirk, you must do the work! Put your fingers to the keyboard.
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