Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Dr Exiled]

I just did a quick search for cases on power dynamics and sexual harassment. What I found is that the courts won't automatically hold a superior liable merely because the superior and subordinate were engaging in questionable conduct. One case concerned a prisoner alleging sexual assault by a guard and the court decided that due to the power dynamics involved, the court would place a rebuttable presumption that there wasn't consent. However, the guard still had a chance to bring evidence of consent. An Oklahoma case refused to hold guards responsible for sexual assault because the prisoner admitted that she consented. Additionally, a California case discussed how there is a presumption of no consent where an 18 yr old high school student was having relations with her teacher. But the teacher could still bring evidence of consent if he had it.

There were also cases where the courts said that power dynamics were definitely a part of the mix on the question of consent but didn't go as far as automatically holding a superior responsible. Even so, private companies and other institutions can have more restrictive policies in terms of power dynamics and this is due to a US Supreme Court decision that held that employers can escape liability for harassment if they have training and aggressive policies against such conduct. So, this is where we see companies coming up with policies more stringent than where the courts currently are.

[Moksha]

Couldn't Rosebud request compensation because the Open Stories Foundation forced her into option 2 when they could easily have turned over control of the organization to her? Plans like that do not come along every day, at least without help from Rudy Giuliani.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Obviously the Open Stories Foundation board was in a bind. If they held John Dehlin responsible for his behavior and fired him, the organization would, for all intents and purposes, cease to exist. This is where it gets tricky, because what is the right thing to do? Fire the guy who got into a relationship with his subordinate and thus end the organization as it exists, thereby destroying 'the work' of many contributors? Look at the testimonials:

https://www.openstoriesfoundation.org/

It's clear the foundation was and is doing good work. But ... what is the right thing to do? How many times have Mormons and ex-Mormons complained about inappropriate sexual behavior by not just the founders of the Mormon religion, but also in its current iteration? There are countless examples of Bishops, Stake Presidents, and everyone in between where some dude, in a position of authority, ended up in a relationship with a kid, a teen, a young adult, a single adult, a single mother, or someone's wife.

This isn't to excuse what an adult woman chose to do. She chose to dishonor herself, her marriage, and the organization. And she paid the price.

But, other than a ceremonial demotion and endless harassment by Rosebud and some of her proxies (and judgement from many in the exmo community), did John Dehlin pay a price commensurate with his choices and actions?

He's still married. He's still the face of Open Stories Foundation. He's making bank. He's a bit of a martyr due to Rosebud's actions. He continues to prosper through the Open Stories Foundation vehicle. The dude, for all intents and purposes, is flourishing.

The right thing to do was to fire him. Period. The right thing to do, by these women on the Open Stories Foundation board, was to accept whatever consequences may have followed by holding John Dehlin truly accountable for his actions. The level of hypocrisy is truly astonishing, in context of Mormonism and social standards of sexism and privilege. John Dehlin flourishes while Rosebud languishes (granted she's shooting herself in her own foot, reloading, and doing it over and over again). Those women on the Open Stories Foundation board did this. John Dehlin did this. I'm not sure how they address Joseph Smith and his various relationships while helping people make context of it other than, at this point, stating something to the effect, "Yeah, men in power can sometimes make bad decisions, amirite? Ugh. Life is so tricky. Maybe we shouldn't judge Joseph Smith and other Mormons so harshly, so let's focus on your own process, yes? I think so. Phew."

- Doc

[Dr Exiled]

Obviously the Open Stories Foundation board was in a bind. If they held John Dehlin responsible for his behavior and fired him, the organization would, for all intents and purposes, cease to exist. This is where it gets tricky, because what is the right thing to do? Fire the guy who got into a relationship with his subordinate and thus end the organization as it exists, thereby destroying 'the work' of many contributors? Look at the testimonials:

https://www.openstoriesfoundation.org/

It's clear the foundation was and is doing good work. But ... what is the right thing to do? How many times have Mormons and ex-Mormons complained about inappropriate sexual behavior by not just the founders of the Mormon religion, but also in its current iteration? There are countless examples of Bishops, Stake Presidents, and everyone in between where some dude, in a position of authority, ended up in a relationship with a kid, a teen, a young adult, a single adult, a single mother, or someone's wife.

This isn't to excuse what an adult woman chose to do. She chose to dishonor herself, her marriage, and the organization. And she paid the price.

But, other than a ceremonial demotion and endless harassment by Rosebud and some of her proxies (and judgement from many in the exmo community), did John Dehlin pay a price commensurate with his choices and actions?

He's still married. He's still the face of Open Stories Foundation. He's making bank. He's a bit of a martyr due to Rosebud's actions. He continues to prosper through the Open Stories Foundation vehicle. The dude, for all intents and purposes, is flourishing.

The right thing to do was to fire him. Period. The right thing to do, by these women on the Open Stories Foundation board, was to accept whatever consequences may have followed by holding John Dehlin truly accountable for his actions. The level of hypocrisy is truly astonishing, in context of Mormonism and social standards of sexism and privilege. John Dehlin flourishes while Rosebud languishes (granted she's shooting herself in her own foot, reloading, and doing it over and over again). Those women on the Open Stories Foundation board did this. John Dehlin did this. I'm not sure how they address Joseph Smith and his various relationships while helping people make context of it other than, at this point, stating something to the effect, "Yeah, men in power can sometimes make bad decisions, amirite? Ugh. Life is so tricky. Maybe we shouldn't judge Joseph Smith and other Mormons so harshly, so let's focus on your own process, yes? I think so. Phew."

- Doc

You make some great points. Perhaps ending Open Stories Foundation would have been the right choice, however, John Dehlin would have just gone across the street and started the New and Improved Open Stories Foundation and continued on. Rosebud would have still been Rosebud and we would be at the same place with one less argument about hypocrisy.

I think the proper way to handle it was to give Rosebud a monetary settlement and send her on her way. Regardless of how dickish John Dehlin was in how he might have led Rosebud on by being wishy washy and being in a more powerful position, I think a remedy where John Dehlin is forced to give up podcasting when there is an audience for him is too harsh. Perhaps when the rest of the story is told, as John Dehlin says will happen, the public will turn against him to Rosebud's delight. I doubt it unless there is credible evidence of something more than we currently have. This was ten years ago and the public will forgive more than likely if it turns out that this was merely welcomed sexual banter and then a split.

[Dwight]

Rosebud was given some sort of severance. Helfer said it was hefty considering their budget at the time, but I don't know what that means. I think it is spelled out somewhere, or maybe all sources are redacted. I imagine there was different times in their relationship that one side or the other was more actively pursuing it, but the undisputed (so far) evidence points to John Dehlin trying to end things and Rosebud wanting it to continue and go to the next level. I think there is more nuance to it, but it gives me vibes of "if I can't have you then no one can". I don't think John Dehlin came away unscathed, but maybe he should have suffered more in a just world.

Also while Open Stories Foundation compensated him and paid for the production of Mormon Stories I don't know that John Dehlin transferred ownership to them or anything, he could have continued on without Open Stories Foundation like he had done before Open Stories Foundation. No one, no board, owns the exmo community. I fear that Rosebud will end up losing yet again and be in a worse spot the more she pursues this, and I think that will follow from the evidence. I don't believe a bombshell exists, and if it does it will probably be diffused cause John has all the emails and text conversations archived too.

I think the comparison to church leaders falls down pretty fast, for this crowd especially, cause there is no one exmo community with a president and that person is John Dehlin.

[Mayan Elephant]

Regardless of how dickish

[Dr Exiled]

Rosebud was given some sort of severance. Helfer said it was hefty considering their budget at the time, but I don't know what that means. I think it is spelled out somewhere, or maybe all sources are redacted. I imagine there was different times in their relationship that one side or the other was more actively pursuing it, but the undisputed (so far) evidence points to John Dehlin trying to end things and Rosebud wanting it to continue and go to the next level. I think there is more nuance to it, but it gives me vibes of "if I can't have you then no one can". I don't think John Dehlin came away unscathed, but maybe he should have suffered more in a just world.

Also while Open Stories Foundation compensated him and paid for the production of Mormon Stories I don't know that John Dehlin transferred ownership to them or anything, he could have continued on without Open Stories Foundation like he had done before Open Stories Foundation. No one, no board, owns the exmo community. I fear that Rosebud will end up losing yet again and be in a worse spot the more she pursues this, and I think that will follow from the evidence. I don't believe a bombshell exists, and if it does it will probably be diffused cause John has all the emails and text conversations archived too.

I think the comparison to church leaders falls down pretty fast, for this crowd especially, cause there is no one exmo community with a president and that person is John Dehlin.

My understanding is that Rosebud was offered $5K and refused. I don't know if she tried to negotiate for a higher settlement or if she had a lawyer advising her at the time.

[Dwight]

My understanding is that Rosebud was offered $5K and refused. I don't know if she tried to negotiate for a higher settlement or if she had a lawyer advising her at the time.

Ah gotcha. I think maybe I did hear she refused it, but then forgot it. I didn't know what the number was.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

... however, John Dehlin would have just gone across the street and started the New and Improved Open Stories Foundation and continued on.

That’s probably what should’ve happened. I think the board didn’t want to lose their primary revenue generator and content creator. That’s pretty gross, given their their individual and collective ethos, purportedly.

- Doc

[Dwight]

Don’t forget

And for the record, it was never my job to provide evidence. It was the Open Stories Foundation's job to ask me for evidence and testimony. They never did that. They didn't want it. They're reversing things and blaming me. A law suit is in order.

I don’t know if Joanna failed to ask for evidence or not, but if Rosebud failed to provide any then can we really fault the board for what they decided based on less information than we have today? Which isn’t even the totality of evidence?