Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Aristotle Smith]

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[Dr Exiled]

Don’t forget

And for the record, it was never my job to provide evidence. It was the Open Stories Foundation's job to ask me for evidence and testimony. They never did that. They didn't want it. They're reversing things and blaming me. A law suit is in order.

I don’t know if Joanna failed to ask for evidence or not, but if Rosebud failed to provide any then can we really fault the board for what they decided based on less information than we have today? Which isn’t even the totality of evidence?

Rosebud needs to crap or get off the pot. If she thinks a lawsuit is in order, perhaps that is what Kate Kelly is doing, preparing a lawsuit. If so, go ahead and file the damn thing already and let's put this to rest eventually.

[Dr Exiled]

Shouldn't this whole episode really tarnish the ability of Dehlin to go after Joseph Smith for polygamy? Every list of reasons Mormons leave includes polygamy/polyandry in the top five reasons. If Dehlin has set himself up as 1) both a critic of the LDS church and 2) as someone who helps people transition away from the LDS church, shouldn't this impact his credibility in doing both?

Time will tell on this. I think John Dehlin can do a mea culpa if it comes out that his denials are empty in the public's eyes and recover. Unless, there is some physical act, then that changes the dynamic and he might lose out. I still think that if all that happened is some sexual talk and no physical action, then, perhaps in Mormon circles where sex starts with the eyes, some may turn away. However, probably the majority will chalk it up to a bad mistake engaging in this type of behavior with a subordinate and still listen to his podcasts.

Joseph Smith and his affairs will probably be left off the episode list for a time.

[Moksha]

Shouldn't this whole episode really tarnish the ability of Dehlin to go after Joseph Smith for polygamy?

Excellent point, Smith had been commanded by an angel with a drawn sword to have a water cooler romance with some smooching in the supply closet, whereas Dehlin was lured to his water cooler doom by a siren singing of domination and joint rule which he fought mightily to resist. Those sirens are so persuasive and their reprisals are terrible to behold in its savagery.

Dehlin should throw himself on the mercy of Mormon Discussion and beg their forgiveness.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Shouldn't this whole episode really tarnish the ability of Dehlin to go after Joseph Smith for polygamy?

Excellent point, Smith had been commanded by an angel with a drawn sword to have a water cooler romance with some smooching in the supply closet, whereas Dehlin was lured to his water cooler doom by a siren singing of domination and joint rule which he fought mightily to resist. Those sirens are so persuasive and their reprisals are terrible to behold in its savagery.

Dehlin should throw himself on the mercy of Mormon Discussion and beg their forgiveness.

Haaaaaa ... a boss having an adulterous relationship with the subordinate is funny. Ha. Got 'em. That thing about smooching in the supply closet. Ha.

- Doc

[Kishkumen]

Don’t forget

And for the record, it was never my job to provide evidence. It was the Open Stories Foundation's job to ask me for evidence and testimony. They never did that. They didn't want it. They're reversing things and blaming me. A law suit is in order.

I don’t know if Joanna failed to ask for evidence or not, but if Rosebud failed to provide any then can we really fault the board for what they decided based on less information than we have today? Which isn’t even the totality of evidence?

Evidence of what? Rosebud did not allege sexual harassment until AFTER she was fired! She got her investigation later, and Nadine Hansen conducted it. When she was asked for evidence, Rosebud told Nadine to go read her Mormon Discussions Board posts! I can tell you as one of the many people here who read all of those time-wasting posts that they were nothing burgers. She never provided ANY evidence, no matter how many times we asked her. So, what does it say that she responded to the first real investigation of the matter with the non-cooperative move of saying, "Go read all those posts on that board where I also refused to provide any evidence."

She has been sending everyone on a snipe hunt for years.The simple fact of the matter is that:

1. She had an ill-advised consensual affair with John Dehlin that involved sexual actitivity but not intercourse.

2. When this affair came to the attention of Joanna Brooks, Joanna gave Rosebud and John Dehlin an ultimatum: you two resign or I quit.

3. On August 26, Rosebud, who had helped arrange the communication with Joanna Brooks, says to John Dehlin: "Hey, she can't tell us what to do. Let's refuse and call her bluff! After all, John Dehlin, you did nothing wrong. We were both board members and this was not sexual harassment. Why should either of us quit for doing nothing wrong? Let's let her quit and then I'll move on from Open Stories Foundation soon and work on my own business. Oh, and please make me an author at the MoSto blog and give me administrator privileges at the MoSto Facebook group."

4. John Dehlin decides not to force Joanna Brooks to resign and so he resigns and reapplies as an independent contractor.

5. Rosebud refuses to resign and so she is fired on August 30, 2012.

6. Rosebud starts begging members of the board to restore her to Open Stories Foundation or at least give her the things she felt she built there.

7. Her pleas fall on deaf ears so she threatens to accuse John of sexual harassment to her dying day on October 17, 2012.

8. Years later Nadine Hansen is assigned to investigate Rosebud's accusation after Open Stories Foundation has voluntarily instituted a policy on sexual harassment.

9. Rosebud does not cooperate with the investigation. She sends Nadine Hansen on the snipe hunt on MDB, where Rosebud knows she has provided no evidence of sexual harassment.

10. Nadine Hansen concludes the investigation having found no evidence of sexual harassment and having received no assistance from the accuser to uncover any evidence.

11. Kate Kelly and Kwaku cook up a plan to resurrect Rosebud's accusation on a Mormon Apologetic crap show. In December of 2020, KK invites Rosebud to join in, but Rosebud refuses because she has "more important things to do."

12. Mormonism Live, with evidence provided by John Dehlin, has a show where they dissect the evidence such that Rosebud's accusations start to look cynical and calculated.

13. Rosebud sends forth her minion James Patterson to die on the hill of Rosebud's unsubstantiated allegations and threats in a largely fruitless attempt to counter the ML broadcast.

[Res Ipsa]

To return to #2, conceivably "submission to such conduct" was "used as the basis for employment decisions affecting" R.

That’s the way I read it, but I’m guessing that’s an issue addressed in the case law.

[Kishkumen]

That’s the way I read it, but I’m guessing that’s an issue addressed in the case law.

Well, you obviously know a lot more about how these things work than I do. In any case, the law at the time did not apply to an organization of Open Stories Foundation's size.

[Kishkumen]

Shouldn't this whole episode really tarnish the ability of Dehlin to go after Joseph Smith for polygamy? Every list of reasons Mormons leave includes polygamy/polyandry in the top five reasons. If Dehlin has set himself up as 1) both a critic of the LDS church and 2) as someone who helps people transition away from the LDS church, shouldn't this impact his credibility in doing both?

Why, did John Dehlin claim that God told him to do it? The issue with polygamy is that the revelatory claim supporting it bears on Smith's role as prophet. If he received revelation A that seemed divine, and revelation B that seemed diabolical, then the problems with B bear on the integrity of A. There is no such claim here. Unless, "you really need to be sinless to criticize the LDS Church" is some kind of legitimate requirement I have never heard of. It is usually apologists and desperate members who make such a specious claim.

Are you pulling my leg?

[Dwight]

Kishkumen I don’t have all of this fresh in my mind, but that jibes with me, so thanks for posting.

Joanna was presented with an extramarital affair that wasn’t sexual between two employees and was ending in a spectacularly bad breakup. She tried to provide a path for both to keep contributing and being part of Open Stories Foundation, Dehlin was punished and accepted he needed to resign, Rosebud tried her power play and when that failed her tune changed.

I think KK may have purposefully stirred this up or latched onto it cause she wants Dehlin tarnished and damaged. I doubt Dehlin will suffer greatly, no matter how much he may deserve to. Rosebud has no bombshell, and if she engages I really think she will come out worse for it. JP and KK are going to enable her self destruction. I don’t think KK will lose any sleep over Rosebud, as she is just using Rosebud to attack Dehlin.

Also I agree Dehlin may lose some credibility but to compare him to someone saying god revealed things to me and commanded things or called this guy to be ward scout leader who turned out to be a pedophile is really stretching it. Rosebud’s are the only credible claims other than John Dehlin might be a toxic person to work with, I am not aware of John Dehlin or Open Stories Foundation ever protecting a pedophile, I know of many bishops that have.

The last Mormon Stories I can recall listening to (besides the RFM crossover with Ritner) is with Christine Jeppsen Clark and what she revealed about her dad and Packer and one of the September Six is independent of Dehlin’s character.