Mormonstories good but could it also be bad?

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dastardly stem
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Mormonstories good but could it also be bad?

Post by dastardly stem »

Net positive? or Net negative?

Don't want to say too much because I'm curious what people think. Has this foundation been a good thing or bad thing? I can definitely see why some might see it as very good and I can see why some might not see it as so good, perhaps even go so far as saying it might in the sum have been a bad thing.

ideas?
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Re: Mormonstories good but could it also be bad?

Post by Meadowchik »

My experience with it is a bit a ironic, I admit. First it provided the familiar male figureheads I was accustomed to in the church. This was just a side benefit, but still comforting during that time of upheaval in my life. But Dehlin interviewed many women, and as a woman I started to be able to identify with other women more. I think that my entire life, I identified with priesthood leaders the most. They were the authority and thus my loyalty to them was loyalty to God, the center of my identity.

Anyways, it was the interview with Christine Jeppsen Clark that really clenched it for me. I started to break away from the need for a male authority figure and I started to crave hearing women's perspectives. And I really, really began to dislike listening to people who spoke authoritatively especially from an unearned position of authority. So I didn't like listening to Dehlin anymore.

Funny, eh?
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Re: Mormonstories good but could it also be bad?

Post by Res Ipsa »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 3:49 pm
Net positive? or Net negative?

Don't want to say too much because I'm curious what people think. Has this foundation been a good thing or bad thing? I can definitely see why some might see it as very good and I can see why some might not see it as so good, perhaps even go so far as saying it might in the sum have been a bad thing.

ideas?
No idea. I’m ambivalent about the notion of building a community of former Mormons. I think any such community should focus on helping people transition from being Mormons to whatever they are going to become next. In other words, the community is a way station. It should have as an explicit goal having people leave the community.

I think healthy communities are those that are built around common interests and beliefs. Building a community around what people don’t believe is, I think, inherently unstable, because people will have a wide range of things they believe in that will tend to fragment the community.

One thing I’d really like to see is a broad network of therapists who specialize on helping people transition out of Mormonism. I recall this being started in SLC, but I don’t know what has happened with it. But I also would be very uncomfortable working with a therapist that was a leader in a former Mormon community.
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Re: Mormonstories good but could it also be bad?

Post by Moksha »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 3:49 pm
ideas?
His podcasts have helped more people than any of the message boards, and yet he has offended the Church. In the old days, he would be gunned down by Orin Porter Rockwell. In 2021, the penalty might either be a mission to Bolivia or Milwaulkee, or else a millennium in the phantom zone.
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Re: Mormonstories good but could it also be bad?

Post by Aristotle Smith »

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Last edited by Aristotle Smith on Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mormonstories good but could it also be bad?

Post by drumdude »

It's a net good. For all of John's shortcomings, he has allowed hundreds of people to document all aspects of Mormonism in their own words over thousands of hours. It has dragged the church kicking and screaming towards making progress with the essays and policy changes. It's made many questioning Mormons feel validated about their doubts. And it's an important gateway out of the cult, in my opinion.
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Re: Mormonstories good but could it also be bad?

Post by Kishkumen »

Meh. I am not sure. On the one hand, I am very thankful that someone started to put all kinds of people who have intersected with Mormonism in some way in front of a microphone where they could tell their own stories. I would have preferred if that spirit of documenting people's stories had remained more at the forefront in a purer form. I was much less happy when the whole thing became a drama about John Dehlin's struggle with faith. I know that was important for a lot of people, but it also created a lot of lopsided interviewing on John's part. The drama surrounding John became a huge liability, and I think it tainted the brand. I still listen to a fair number of the Mormon Stories podcasts, but I join others in being less enthused about turning ex-Mormonism into a kind of community.

The conflict between Dehlin and the Church and its apologists perpetuated the tribalism of ex-Mos and anti-Mos versus the LDS Church that I really dislike. I don't care for the effort to remake the LDS Church in some particular activist's image, even when I share the preference of the activist, i.e., I would love to see women's priesthood put into serious action and I would like to see an end to the interviewing of minors. I am waiting for people to either drift off to another branch of the Restoration, found their own churches, or just flippin' leave already. Do not waste your time pushing the LDS Church into your particular point of view. You'll spin out your life trying to force the Church to do things your way exactly as you would like.

But, all of this has helped me carve out my own space where I am comfortable, as an ex-LDS Mormon. Sounds strange until you realize that Mormonism is a religious tradition that is open to whoever claims it, not just one organization controlled by the Corporation of the First Presidency. If you want to identify as such, just do it. Don't wait for permission, and don't kill yourself fighting the LDS Church. It really isn't worth it. Treat them like you would treat any other religious organization you don't belong to and don't fully agree with. Be polite, keep a polite distance, and do your own thing without seeking a fight. I am not saying the LDS Church can't be criticized for what it does. Criticize to your heart's content if it makes you happy. I know I do. But don't let it eat you up. I can't tell President Nelson what to do anymore than I can demand that the Pope conform to my wishes.

Just let go a bit.
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Re: Mormonstories good but could it also be bad?

Post by dastardly stem »

Thanks for the comments. I enjoyed the ideas shared.

It feels impossible to come to any certain conclusion on this, maybe I need to take it to the Lord (;.

Something that concerns me about Mormonstories is the way the conversation gets framed. I've mentioned before Dehlin's penchant for painting excommunication as a violent act. That stuff just eats at me a bit. It furthers the notion of us vs. them and is way emotional and inaccurate. I mean that's one example. I'm also not too keen on the use of "faith crisis". I don't see it as a crisis and don't think people should see it as such either. I say that knowing in doing so I'm coming off as heartless or cold. I don't mean to, because I have felt the sentiment. It hurts and is difficult. But, crisis doesn't work, if you ask me.

I go to things like Mormonstories Facebook and see too much victimhood, as I see it--too many complaining about non-issue things. I wonder if that's a healthy way to see people's Mormon experience.

Anyway, thought I'd try to add some ideas here. I accept that Mromonstories has done some good. I've consumed many podcasts (though, like other indicated, it's been a long time). I've enjoyed the stories told--for me individual's stories are just beautiful.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: Mormonstories good but could it also be bad?

Post by Kishkumen »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:47 pm
Thanks for the comments. I enjoyed the ideas shared.

It feels impossible to come to any certain conclusion on this, maybe I need to take it to the Lord (;.

Something that concerns me about Mormonstories is the way the conversation gets framed. I've mentioned before Dehlin's penchant for painting excommunication as a violent act. That stuff just eats at me a bit. It furthers the notion of us vs. them and is way emotional and inaccurate. I mean that's one example. I'm also not too keen on the use of "faith crisis". I don't see it as a crisis and don't think people should see it as such either. I say that knowing in doing so I'm coming off as heartless or cold. I don't mean to, because I have felt the sentiment. It hurts and is difficult. But, crisis doesn't work, if you ask me.

I go to things like Mormonstories Facebook and see too much victimhood, as I see it--too many complaining about non-issue things. I wonder if that's a healthy way to see people's Mormon experience.

Anyway, thought I'd try to add some ideas here. I accept that Mromonstories has done some good. I've consumed many podcasts (though, like other indicated, it's been a long time). I've enjoyed the stories told--for me individual's stories are just beautiful.
I resonate with a lot of what you are saying Stem. I look at it this way: Mormonism was always going to be in conflict with the surrounding culture. This is just another example of that conflict. People can say Mormonism is unacceptable for all kinds of reasons, and the more those reasons sound persuasive, the more those using them will succeed in peeling Mormons away from the LDS Church. A faith crisis is a traumatic conversion. In life we encounter things that can really change our way of seeing things. Sometimes the stakes are low: "Man, The Wire really is the best tv show ever!" And sometimes the stakes are high: "Now I realize that I need to leave my family and enter a monastery!" Where the stakes are high, the emotional pain surrounding the conversion will be more marked.

John Dehlin is facilitating the difficult conversion away from Mormonism to a kind of liberal secularism. On the surface it looks benign. This is similar to Bill and Hillary before everyone knew about Monica stuff. Of course, some people will tell you that there is plenty that is deeply wrong with that state of affairs (pun intended). And if you listen long enough and closely enough you realize that there is only a polite "tolerance" of things that are derided as ludicrous or inveighed against as even dangerous. Seriously, I am not all that moved by John's claims that something is silly or dangerous. The stakes are high. People feel passionately about their beliefs. You may feel more sympathy with one side or another. What grates is the certainty of so many people that their conversion has landed them in a better place.

But that's what conversion is all about, isn't it?
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Mormonstories good but could it also be bad?

Post by Res Ipsa »

dastardly stem wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 3:47 pm
Thanks for the comments. I enjoyed the ideas shared.

It feels impossible to come to any certain conclusion on this, maybe I need to take it to the Lord (;.

Something that concerns me about Mormonstories is the way the conversation gets framed. I've mentioned before Dehlin's penchant for painting excommunication as a violent act. That stuff just eats at me a bit. It furthers the notion of us vs. them and is way emotional and inaccurate. I mean that's one example. I'm also not too keen on the use of "faith crisis". I don't see it as a crisis and don't think people should see it as such either. I say that knowing in doing so I'm coming off as heartless or cold. I don't mean to, because I have felt the sentiment. It hurts and is difficult. But, crisis doesn't work, if you ask me.

I go to things like Mormonstories Facebook and see too much victimhood, as I see it--too many complaining about non-issue things. I wonder if that's a healthy way to see people's Mormon experience.

Anyway, thought I'd try to add some ideas here. I accept that Mromonstories has done some good. I've consumed many podcasts (though, like other indicated, it's been a long time). I've enjoyed the stories told--for me individual's stories are just beautiful.
Good thoughts stem. For some LDS lots of faith is a crisis. Not so much for others. It was for me, and I’d have given anything to have access to others who could tell me that I wasn’t crazy or controlled by Satan and that I would be okay after a bit.

But, the problem with building a movement or community is that it’s hard to let people go when it’s time to move on.
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Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
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