Have the Mopologists Ever Feared that their Eternal Salvation Could be Taken Away?

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Doctor Scratch
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Have the Mopologists Ever Feared that their Eternal Salvation Could be Taken Away?

Post by Doctor Scratch »

I have to tell you, I have been stunned about the news of Fiona Givens being "given the boot" from the "new" MI! And the story that's being told is that this was due to her giving a talk about Heavenly Mother. But how does anyone know this? Did someone tell her that she "would need to step away" precisely *because* of the HM business? Or, instead, is it all just gossip at this point? I ask because moments like these--and believe me when I say that this carries every bit the same level of gravity as FARMS's "getting the boot" back in 2021. It is truly that significant, and it's tempting to try to read the political and strategic tea leaves. Are the Mopologists celebrating this as a victory? Dean Robbers linked to Midgley's cryptic comment about a "scolding," where Midgley seemed to imply that they'd (i.e., the "new" MI) gotten into trouble for some reason. But was the Heavenly Mother talk really the reason? Is the topic of Heavenly Mother really that sacred/important to the Brethren?

All of this has, once again, gotten me thinking about the way that LDS theology intersects with Mopologetics. So, I think we can safely say that the apologists really and truly believe that there is an afterlife. They believe that this is a real thing, and believe that they've had to suffer through sacrifices (not unlike President Nelson's nasty and unforgivable encounter with a snotty, party-animal type). In fact, there was recently a YouTube video featuring Dr. Peterson talking about the heaven depicted in Added Upon, and, while it's sort of a bummer that it's "unfashionable" and that "you could accuse it, justly, of being slightly racist," it's still an extraordinary rendering of the plan of salvation! If social stratification carries over into the next life, where you get to be the God and all these other losers have to kiss your feet? That's right up the Mopologists' alley. DCP calls the books a "catalyst" and says that "he just knew it was true." You'd almost think he was discussing scripture, the way he rhapsodizes about this.

But given that--i.e., the Mopologists sincerely believe in heaven--does it therefore follow that the thought of having it taken away is terrifying? And I don't mean just any terror; I mean think of the most horrific existential terror you can imagine. Think of Kierkegaard, contemplating the story of Abraham and Isaac in Fear and Trembling, and marveling at its horror and its simultaneous beauty. *That* is the kind of terror I mean. Seriously: try to put yourself in the shoes of John Gee, or Midgley, or Greg Smith, or any of the Mopologists. If you are them, how scared would you be if your eternal salvation could somehow be taken away from you? I get the rebuttal involving free agency. There is this certain arrogance where you think: "Whatever. I'm totally fine so long as I go to the temple, pay my tithing, and check all these boxes." Basically: so long as you stay on the straight-and-narrow, you'll be fine.

But what if that's not what you want to do? What if, instead, you're tempted by the lure of wealth, power, fame, respect, or whatever else? And what if you doing that puts you in conflict with the Brethren? What I'm ultimately asking here is: How scared do we assume the Mopologists are of the Brethren? There have been clear instances of them being incredibly disrespectful and arguably engaging in full-blown insubordination (I think of Midgley getting in that GA's face; or the whole expulsion of FARMS), and yet, have they fallen out of favor completely? I don't think there are any rumors about Givens being on the chopping block for excommunication: she's not openly pointing fingers at the Brethren, but then again, the Mopologists didn't do that either, despite the fact that Holland was one of the main people behind them getting kicked out of the MI. And then there is the whole issue of doctrine. *Have* the Mopologists contradicted the Brethren on the issue of, say, the location of the Book of Mormon? I would say "Yes." I think the Heartlanders criticisms are, in part, valid, and we can't forget the lessons of the 2nd Watson letter. That whole fiasco was a consequence of the Mopologists actually trying to *change* doctrine.

What I'm getting at here is that there seems to be a real sense of fear operating behind the scenes, pulling strings and so forth. I think this fear is actually motivating Midgley's comment, and his characterization of what happened as a "scolding"--like what a parent does to a child. If that's the case though--that the Brethren are basically like parents--then that means that the rank and file are "kids." Midgley's glee is thus the glee of the kid who enjoys seeing his sibling take the punishment for a change. But that would mean that the Mopologists have been punished, too, and I believe they have. Is there anybody left at this point--besides the Mopologists themselves--who think that their expulsion from the MI *wasn't* motivated by a GA? Sure: there are factions. There are some of the Brethren who have favored Mopologetics, but there have also been some who didn't. And I've always thought that there were signs that the key Mopologists were really trying to be on their best behavior. And that may be the best way to describe this stunning nugget:
CS: "DanielPeterson, it looks like you are currently scheduled to host an LDS Tour Cruise to visit several Mayan ruins.

https://www.cruiselady.com/..."

Yes. We'll see whether it carries.

CS: "Is it your opinion that these ruins are somehow related to the Book of Mormon? What do you plan on telling your tour group about these ruins and their relationship to the Book of Mormon?"

No. Probably nothing.
Whoa! Is he publicly denying the LGT here? I think he is! It's worth noting that Dr. Peterson failed to include this crucial bit of CS's original post:
Chapstick wrote:DanielPeterson previous wrote, “Truth be told, I’m not overly interested in questions of Book of Mormon geography at all. That is to say, I have opinions — I’m comfortably inclined toward a limited Mesoamerican model, although I’m not wedded to it.”
Why would he seemingly contradict himself? If he's "comfortably inclined toward a limited Mesoamerican model," then why wouldn't he react more favorably towards the Mayan ruins? So, why are they going there, then? Just because touring is fun? Okay. But this is meant to be a frankly LDS tour, no? After all, DCP went ballistic over Everybody Wang Chung's teasing him about going on the cruise because he--DCP--didn't like the idea of Everybody Wang Chung "mocking" them while they were bearing their testimonies!

In any case, I consider this a watershed moment in the history of Mopologetics--DCP is publicly denying the LGT. Plus, someone he thinks is a sock puppet of Jonathan Neville has turned up to needle him in the "Comments" section. Does this mean that the Heartlanders have scored a victory, and now DCP has been told that he needs to get in line? Was a "scolding" delivered to him?

And that returns me to my original question. I honestly wonder: how much of the Mopologists behavior is motivated by a fear (whether it is fully conscious or not) that the Brethren could theoretically take the Plan of Salvation away from them? I mean, you see someone like Fiona Givens. Do you think she was aware that she was doing something "wrong"? Yes, people have gotten into trouble for openly talking about this before, but there've been no clear commandments from the pulpit lately, have there? I bet she was surprised to be given her walking papers by the MI. It could be that she personally wanted to walk away for some reason (and I predict that either that will be the story that is given, or that they will remain silent), but the SL Trib article depicts it as a "booting." As a "scolding," as Midgley would have it.

So, yes: the Brethren are pulling the strings, but just how authentic are the Mopologists' beliefs about the afterlife? And do they think that, if they made a wrong move, that their eternal salvation could get taken from them?
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: Have the Mopologists Ever Feared that their Eternal Salvation Could be Taken Away?

Post by Philo Sofee »

Dr. Scratch
So, yes: the Brethren are pulling the strings, but just how authentic are the Mopologists' beliefs about the afterlife?
We may never know short of a confession. But they certainly don't act like they believe it. They certainly have never taken much of what Jesus is supposed to have said either in the Bible or their own scriptures seriously enough to actually DO what he taught they ought to. Neither have I, but this isn't about me. Mopologists apparently believe that in the little things Jesus will just let them slide, since, after all, they really aren't as near a big of a deal as actually showing the world on the internet the Book of Mormon is true, and as a killing two birds with one stone, they are ridding their own garments of the blood and sins of this generation. They are obviously perfectly comfortable bearing their own sins since in their minds they are so small they wouldn't even show up on the sin-o-meter.

There is no reason to bother with the small stuff, they are raising millions to defend the Book of Mormon witnesses. On the sin-o-meter that so far outweighs their rudeness, pettiness, small lies, and dissing others who disagree with them, that it appears to me in their minds, they actually do believe they are sinless, more or less. And after they are beaten with a few stripes, Celestial Kingdom/Godhood HERE WE COME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All of their behavior and words send this signal. We ain't the murderers, adulterers, pinko gays, blacks, atheists, or anti-Mormons, we are the temple endowed, book reading in order to prove Mormonism is Jesus' true church, money raising to defend Joseph Smith and his friends future Gods of our own universes like "Added Upon" says! We already have one foot in the Godhood door!

That appears to be their mentality. They have absolutely no humility. They have and bear absolutely no love to anyone except who love them, all others are enemies, and it is far and way more convenient to ignore them or attack them, rather than love them. They proclaim as many good things in Mormonism as they can, and of course, in their account books, this all outweighs any other shortcomings they have and adds more weight they can draw on.

I truly don't believe they fear anything can be taken away from them. They are already in. In their minds, they have arrived, they are just waiting for Peter (or Moroni) to open the gate and welcome them back home! All the hypocrisy, hate, venom, plagiarizing (stealing), evil speaking, disobeying, carping.... all of it is simply wiped away by their work at Interpreter. Look Lord, I am responsible for hundreds and hundreds of articles defending you and your church, you OWE me. So lets drop the pretense, wipe my sins, move over, I'm coming into my well earned and deserved GLORY! Where is my crown? Get it for me will you, my bare head needs covered. Thanks Jesus.
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Re: Have the Mopologists Ever Feared that their Eternal Salvation Could be Taken Away?

Post by Philo Sofee »

CS: "DanielPeterson, it looks like you are currently scheduled to host an LDS Tour Cruise to visit several Mayan ruins.

https://www.cruiselady.com/..."

Yes. We'll see whether it carries.

CS: "Is it your opinion that these ruins are somehow related to the Book of Mormon? What do you plan on telling your tour group about these ruins and their relationship to the Book of Mormon?"

No. Probably nothing.
And so they are literally ripping off their own people, convincing them it is important to go on these tours since they help bring faith to the Book of Mormon... Otherwise what's the point of calling them Book of Mormon tours?! Even LDS tours is deceptive! Who's the guide? Oh! Brother Dan Peterson formerly of FARMS, the PREMIERE Book of Mormon defenders in the church! And we are going to the land they have written about for decades! Talk about fundamentally lying in totality! How does Peterson even sleep at night man? The poor guy, not an authentic bone in his entire being, no genuineness to speak of at all.
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Re: Have the Mopologists Ever Feared that their Eternal Salvation Could be Taken Away?

Post by malkie »

The Cruise Lady site has a section on "Book of Mormon Lands".

Delightful Western Caribbean & Ruins, Too Cruise [sic] - Headliner: Jack Marshall

Book of Mormon LANDS & 3 RUINS - Headliner: John Lund

Best of 3 Mayan Ruins in Western Caribbean - Headliner: Daniel Peterson

If I were on one of these "Book of Mormon Lands" cruises, would it be unreasonable for me to expect these fine gentlemen to talk about the Book of Mormon Lands?

Would it be unreasonable for me to expect them to explain the connection between where we were cruising, what we were seeing, and the lands of the Book of Mormon?

Might it seem like a bit of a bait & switch if they did not do so?

Imagine if your presenter talks about the Book of Mormon, but says, when asked, that he can say nothing about why we are here, on this cruise, looking at these specific ruins.

I try to be reasonable, but unless there is a prominent disclaimer up front, think I'd be looking at what the law says about false or misleading advertising. And if there is such a disclaimer, why would I go on a "Book of Mormon Lands" cruise?
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Re: Have the Mopologists Ever Feared that their Eternal Salvation Could be Taken Away?

Post by Gadianton »

Doctor Scratch wrote: If that's the case though--that the Brethren are basically like parents--then that means that the rank and file are "kids." Midgley's glee is thus the glee of the kid who enjoys seeing his sibling take the punishment for a change. But that would mean that the Mopologists have been punished, too, and I believe they have
This is pretty insightful, it exactly captures the Mopologists attitude toward the punishment of other members. And yes, they know they can get in trouble too, and that DCP is a little hesitant to confirm the ruins of the Nephites while on an LDS tour where people are paying good money to be told about the ruins of the Nephites is the hard proof of that fear. I wonder if he'll try to get around it though? When they come to say, Zarahemla, will he say something like, "I really wish I could speak freely now?" And then it will be a guessing game for the tourists; he'll laugh and say, "getting warmer!" It's like drinking sparkling cider instead of wine on New Year's eve.

Yes, they do believe their salvation can be taken away. If they didn't, then it would erase the elitism. Importantly, their link to salvation is the Church. As Dr. Shades noted long ago: Internet Mormons know what the real doctrine is on Sunday morning. Unlike Denver Snuffer and others who have believed apostate teachings, they "live at the mercy of the king". If their membership is ever in danger, that is tantamount to their Eternal Salvation under siege. They don't believe they can be saved outside of the Church. And so if the Brethren tell them to stop teaching something, then they'll comply with fear and trembling, even if they disagree.
Lost Gospel of Thomas 1:8 - And Jesus said, "what about the Pharisees? They did it too! Wherefore, we shall do it even more!"
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Re: Have the Mopologists Ever Feared that their Eternal Salvation Could be Taken Away?

Post by Moksha »

Martin Harris thought his soul would be damned if he refused. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG0Nl2efCHQ
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Re: Have the Mopologists Ever Feared that their Eternal Salvation Could be Taken Away?

Post by Moksha »

Louis Midgley wrote: I must call attention to Professor Peterson's sly remark about the wonderful photo of all the Hawaiian Islands. He added the following, for the benefit of those he describes as "militant heartlanders"--"by the way, the Earth's curvature is plainly visible" in the photo.
Is Dr. Peterson deliberately trying to sabotage the wonderful festschrift article, "A Flat Earth Testifys of Dr. Midgley?"
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Re: Have the Mopologists Ever Feared that their Eternal Salvation Could be Taken Away?

Post by IHAQ »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 2:02 am
I have to tell you, I have been stunned about the news of Fiona Givens being "given the boot" from the "new" MI! And the story that's being told is that this was due to her giving a talk about Heavenly Mother.
Do you have any links to where this is being told and to what is being said?
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Re: Have the Mopologists Ever Feared that their Eternal Salvation Could be Taken Away?

Post by malkie »

IHAQ wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:41 am
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 2:02 am
I have to tell you, I have been stunned about the news of Fiona Givens being "given the boot" from the "new" MI! And the story that's being told is that this was due to her giving a talk about Heavenly Mother.
Do you have any links to where this is being told and to what is being said?
There's a separate thread on the topic: MI Fires Fiona?
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Re: Have the Mopologists Ever Feared that their Eternal Salvation Could be Taken Away?

Post by Gadianton »

Dr. Scratch,

In your professional opinion, how might the Witnesses film affect prospects of Eternal Salvation for the producers?

Did you know that it's going to be released in 34 states? Did you know that Billboards are going up to advertise it? Everything about it is as if it were a commissioned piece from the Brethren, except for the fact that it isn't. But that's how it's going to be received by the rest of the world.

If it does well, what's the outcome of that? On the one hand, the Brethren might be very pleased. If it brings in baptisms, then I don't think it's absurd to say that an additional planet in the Eternities is in order for those who made it successful. But what if it bombs and people laugh at it, and it makes the church look silly? What shall the Brethren think then? How happy are they going to be?
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