Challenge For Sledge

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Challenge For Sledge

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Sledge wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:44 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:21 am
Well. It’s an interesting coincidence that yonder up the road in Painesville, OH the Painesiville Telegraph printed a story from the New York Courier and Enquirer entitled “The Crisis.” The article spoke of the “probabilities of dismemberment” stemming from discontent in South Carolina and Georgia over states rights. Most notably the date of this article is Friday, December 21, 1832, four days before Joseph Smith received his Christmas “prophecy.”

- Doc
Do you have a source (that isn’t mrm) for this that I can take a look at (no death threats, please).
https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... r?lang=eng

https://m.imgur.com/hmrmr2b

A couple of good discussions ref the ‘prophecy’ in Reddit archives:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... hesied_by/


https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... t_how_the/


One should note the Mormons and the Painesville Telegraph had a pretty thorough relationship and they followed each other extensively.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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The Stig
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Re: Challenge For Sledge

Post by The Stig »

Sledge wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:55 pm
The Stig wrote:
Don't patronize me; you have no idea how much I have studied FAIR's links and information.
Precisely. So I can only go off of what you post here. And your post indicated that you aren’t familiar with the material.
On the contrary, I am familiar with it and its incomplete analysis is fatal to its argument.
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Dr Moore
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Re: Challenge For Sledge

Post by Dr Moore »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:40 pm
I am happy Sledge is here. Something has to give us a break from the echo chamber of anti-Mormonism opinion.
“FAIR” point reverend. Someone needs to remind us to open our minds back up. To, as Trey Parker put it, “believe really hard, and believe hard enough, then we’ll believe it.”
dastardly stem
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Re: Challenge For Sledge

Post by dastardly stem »

Sledge wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:43 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:30 pm
On the other thread, Sledge was pretty evasive and seemed to, in the sum, define prophecy as something a prophet says and not much more. At one point he said a prophecy is just a prediction, but then seemed to take issue when I pointed out that's what he said.
What? I didn't take issue with that. That is exactly what I said.
He also said prophecy is a mandate. He also pointed out that prophecy is really just "the right thing to do".
No. I didn't. You aren't acting in good faith, stem. Why?
Also when he said: "heeding a prophets words to be healthy, to "take vitamins" is a type of prophetic mandate, is it not?" He was left equivocating on the concept of prophecy, muddying up the waters enough to suggest, at least as I saw it, that prophecy is simply something a prophet says that he kinda liked.
You saw it very incorrectly.
Although included in that "prophecy" of eating vitamins was Nelson's claim that in the next year or two there will be "exciting" events which will further indicate the restoration is continuing. That was 3 years ago. What exciting things have been revealed regarding the restoration in that time? Of course Sledge has nothing on that, since it appears, everything the prophet prophesies is meek is not magic nor specific in any sense.
COVID-19 is pretty exciting. What will it mean for our worldwide church?
I mean I hate to sound like I'm picking on the guy, because you know, when it comes to outlandish claims it's kind of no big deal. They're a dime a dozen and easily dismissed as loony people saying loony things. But let's just frame his position a little more.
Why are you assuming I'm a guy?
To Sledge, apparently, God actually communicates with humans. If so, one would think that would be pretty important for people to know.
Yes. It is very important to know, that's why I said it, and that's why I seek communion with god as we all should.
When asked for examples of God communicating, he finds a couple of, as he puts it, admittedly meek sentences,
Okay, so asked and answered. No one asked for magic tricks or parting of the Red Sea, did they?

which he misquoted,
Seriously, what are you talking about? Where did I quote them and especially where did I misquote them? Post links, please.

and when pressed to a very light degree he clammed up a bit and in place of stepping up with a good reason for others to think God said something, he basically back-stepped suggesting God's messages are kinda lame and useless in the long run.
Where did I do that? I didn't do any such thing. Examples were requested, examples were given. I am really astounded that you won't even give me the modicum of respect required to actually read what I wrote and address it. What you are doing here is setting up straw men that are easy for you to knock down. Please stop.
They don't seem to matter at all. He hedged his bets at every point after that, it seemed. He demurred saying something about how in the Bible prophecies were rare, so we can't really expect to see any these days. Well, he says, "if you are looking for a magic trick then you might not understand the nature of prophecy", as if anyone was asking for magic or anything like it. And of course, as he put it, prophecy is "just prediction". But as it were there were no predictions outlined by him and nothing to indicate the prophet understood his words were an attempt to predict anything--he indicated a couple of times how it's possible or likely that Nelson didn't even know what he was saying.
Of course you know, but won't admit, that this was a different discussion.
I don't think he's willing to discuss anything in a respectful way. I hope he surprises me, though.
Please point out one time, just once where I was disrespectful to you in any way.
Ok. Hoping to give you the benefit if any doubts, what prediction was made and how was it fulfilled? You seem to think saying home centered church and cutting it back to 2 hours is a prediction. You also seem to think saying take your vitamin pills also equates to a prediction. And no covid is not exciting and has nothing to do with a restoration.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Rick Grunder
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Re: Challenge For Sledge

Post by Rick Grunder »

While reading this thread and one of its links, I was dumbfounded, this evening, to see the following on a FAIR page:
No American statesman in 1832 believed that the doctrines of secession then talked of would result in a great civil war. None of them had the foresight to see that a great rebellion would occur, beginning in South Carolina; that it would terminate in the death and misery of many souls; that the Southern States would be divided against the Northern States; that the Southern States would call on Great Britain, and that war would eventually be poured out upon all nations.
Source: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... arolina.3F

This is jaw-droppingly uninformed, and utterly inaccurate. It’s past midnight here, and I’m not inclined to sit for hours and extract quotes from my Mormon Parallels: A Bibliographic Source. But anyone who has it can simply search for the phrase “Civil War” (and related entries) and observe how very closely Joseph Smith’s predictions corresponded to popular thought at that time, including elements which in fact did not “come to pass,” but which Americans thought might well occur. And yes, statesmen employed the term “civil war” in direct fear of the secession crisis.
“I prefer tongue-tied knowledge to ignorant loquacity.”
― Cicero, De Oratore - Book III
Fence Sitter
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Re: Challenge For Sledge

Post by Fence Sitter »

Once again we see a defense of Joseph Smith that claims to know what he did not or could not of known.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Challenge For Sledge

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:24 pm
Sledge,

What do you make of a newspaper article being written in a locally accessible newspaper that contained the very information Joseph Smith used four days later with regard to his revelation?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Challenge For Sledge

Post by Fence Sitter »

Since Rick is too humble to quote from his own work in this matter, I will.
Joseph Smith's 1832 prophecy on civil and resulting world war was, both in timing and in several of its striking details, a natural and expected response from then-current, widely-publicized events.
Joseph Smith's words during the earlier stage of the crisis, however, demonstrate beyond a reasonable pause that if his expressions on war in the final week of 1832 were to epitomize the term prophecy, then we would hardly need prophets at all. In order to envisage a war that concerned every American that Christmas season with fears of potential expansion to worldwide anarchy - a reading of the daily papers made one prophet enough. Josiah Quincy (who would later predict enduring fame for the Mormon leader) contemplated this very war sooner - and with broader understanding, some may allow - than did Joseph Smith.
(I would like to point out that Rick has overlooked the fact that apparently a prophet is still needed to speak out on taking vitamins and home church study. Who knew?)

Smith and his followers didn't even think enough of the "revelation" to include it in the first edition of the D&C issued two years latter.
More from Rick's "Mormon Parallels"
Crisis was averted for a generation by Henry Clay's Compromise Tariff of 1833, and the "Revelation and Prophecy on War" was left out of the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants two years later. Some ten detailed news reports and other relevant published sources from the early 1830's are analyzed in this Bibliographic Source, all of which can be found by searching for the phrase, "Prophecy on War."
One of those contemporary articles says.
None but the deluded ever doubted, that this contest must terminate in bloodshed and civil war--...Who but those who have been grossly deluded can believe, that Congress will permit the State of South Caroline to secede from the Union. Congress has sacred duties to preform, and is called upon to fulfill them.
It is well known, that the Nullifying party look forward to forming a close alliance with Great Britain.
Rick assembles an impressive number of articles explicitly showing how Smith was just repeating a common widely known topic of the day and labeling it "prophecy". Since Rick's work has been readily available since 2008, it appears that the claim by FAIR that
No American statesman in 1832 believed that the doctrines of secession then talked of would result in a great civil war.
is easily disprovable and the information has been available to FAIR for over a decade. So is FAIR just lying or totally incompetent?

By the way, incase the FAIR people and those reading them do not know where to get a copy of Rick's massive work at a ridiculously low price, it is available here.
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Sledge
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Re: Challenge For Sledge

Post by Sledge »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: Sledge,

What do you make of a newspaper article being written in a locally accessible newspaper that contained the very information Joseph Smith used four days later with regard to his revelation?

- Doc
I think tensions at the time rumored of war, certainly. I think serious discussions about war being on the horizon were happening in some places. According to this, the Telegraph reported that president Jackson issued a proclamation that warned South Carolina that their rejection of federal tariffs could end in bloodshed.

The article says
Without ever mentioning President Jackson by name, the prophecy on war made the president’s conditional promises inevitable.
I think that's important to note. Joseph Smith issued a specific prediction that came to pass. Not all prophecies are specific, of course. This one was, and there is no doubt Joseph was interested in and influenced by the news at the time.
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Sledge
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Re: Challenge For Sledge

Post by Sledge »

Fence Sitter wrote:
By the way, incase the FAIR people and those reading them do not know where to get a copy of Rick's massive work at a ridiculously low price, it is available here.
Not really interested in this brand of parallelomania, but maybe some others might be.
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