The Conspiracy Theory argument for the truth of Mormonism

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
drumdude
God
Posts: 5219
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

The Conspiracy Theory argument for the truth of Mormonism

Post by drumdude »

The biggest argument against the 9/11 conspiracy theory is that too many people would have to lie to keep it secret. Literally thousands of people would have been involved. So what do you think about DCP employing this argument for the truthfulness of the LDS church?

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... -lied.html
Leaving a general conference session a couple of weeks ago, I noticed a
demonstrator holding a sign announcing that Joseph Smith had “lied.”

Now, I don’t buy this for a second. The evidence for Joseph’s overall sincerity
(including his apparent willingness to die for his claims, but also exhibited in his
personal papers and letters, which, though never intended for publication, are
now being made available to a general audience) is strong and compelling.

But, I found myself wondering, is it really only Joseph who has to have lied if
dishonesty, false witness, is supposed to account for Mormonism and the
restored church?

Not by a long shot.

Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer would need to have lied
about their encounter with Moroni, the plates, the Urim and Thummim, a
number of other exotic objects and the audible voice of God. Christian Whitmer,
Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer Jr., John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith
Sr., Hyrum Smith and Samuel Harrison Smith must have lied about seeing and
“hefting” the plates of the Book of Mormon. Hyrum Smith, in fact, must have
maintained that lie through four months of winter misery in Liberty Jail in
Missouri and right up through his clearly foreseen martyrdom in Carthage, Ill.
Lucy Mack Smith must have borne false witness in claiming to have held the
breastplate that came with the Nephite record. Emma Smith and Katherine
Smith Salisbury must have lied in their descriptions of the Book of Mormon
plates. William Smith must have lied in estimating the weight of the plates at
about 60 pounds. Mary Whitmer must have lied to her son and grandson in
claiming to have seen them.

Oliver Cowdery must have lied about the hands of John the Baptist and then of
Peter, James and John being laid upon his head to confer priesthood authority.
Sidney Rigdon must have borne false witness about the vision of the three
degrees of glory that he supposedly shared with Joseph Smith (Doctrine and
Covenants 76). Philo Dibble must also have lied in recalling his experience with
Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon on that occasion.

More than 120 witnesses must have falsely testified about Brigham Young’s
transformation before their eyes upon his succession to the presidency of the
church. Brigham Young himself must have lied about receiving the revelation
contained in Doctrine and Covenants 136. Joseph F. Smith, too, must have lied
when he claimed a vision of the redemption of the dead, now canonized as
Doctrine and Covenants 138. Spencer W. Kimball must likewise have been lying,
in early June 1978, about receiving the revelation on priesthood now identified
with “Official Declaration — 2” in the Doctrine and Covenants. Elders Bruce R.
McConkie and David B. Haight, with other members of the Council of the
Twelve Apostles, must also have lied when they bore testimony of their
experience during that revelation, as did the two apostles who, weeping, told
historian Leonard Arrington what had just happened to them in the Salt Lake
Temple.

Lorenzo Snow must have lied to his granddaughter about his vision of Christ in
the temple at the death of President Wilford Woodruff, and President George Q.
Cannon must have been lying when, on at least three occasions that I know of,
he testified before spellbound audiences about having spoken with the Savior
face to face.

I don’t believe it. I don’t believe that Joseph Smith and his associates were liars. I
see no direct indication of it. And I don’t believe these other witnesses have been
deliberate, conscious deceivers. The evidence for their sincerity is, once again,
overwhelming, and persuasive.

But perhaps, a critic might respond, a significant proportion of these people
were simply mad. Not likely. Joseph Smith would have to have been unerringly
successful in identifying crazy and hallucinatory people, ahead of time, who
would corroborate rather than expose his baseless concoctions. And the odds of
this being the case are, in my judgment, extraordinarily low — so minuscule, in
fact, as to amount to virtual impossibility.

No, what gave rise to the Restoration, and what keeps it going, is the force of
experiences and convictions diffused among, and sincerely held by, hundreds of
thousands, even millions, of good, earnest people over the better part of two centuries now.

Important as he is, and much as we honor him, it doesn’t all rely
just upon Joseph Smith.
So many people would have to had lied about Mormonism that it is essentially by default true. The burden of proof is on YOU, dear apostate, to prove that they lied and it's all a giant conspiracy. You are the crazy conspiracy theorist.
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5017
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: The Conspiracy Theory argument for the truth of Mormonism

Post by Philo Sofee »

Dan Peterson's problem is he tries so valiantly to be a clever rhetorician...
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 8981
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: The Conspiracy Theory argument for the truth of Mormonism

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Willing to die, huh? A pepperbox pistol and (probably) the Masonic cry of distress doesn’t work for the ‘lamb to the slaughter’ claim. As That Little crap might put it, “Dan Peterson knows no more about his own faith than what a seminary student might receive i,”

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
Dr Exiled
God
Posts: 1602
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:40 pm

Re: The Conspiracy Theory argument for the truth of Mormonism

Post by Dr Exiled »

OJ Simpson still denies his murders. Madoff lied for years and would have continued had he not been caught. The Enron fraudsters committed their frauds for a long time. The thing is individuals and groups persist in their lies all the time. Courts are full of conspiracies that are sometimes discovered and sometimes not. Sometimes people get away with their group lies. The Mob exists but who is going to complain? National Security is used as an excuse to not publish or disclose government secrets for years and years. So, I can see how the religious would persist in defending their questionable claims, how those in charge would persist in pushing the lies when power depends on it, when leaders who leave don't want to be ridiculed.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: The Conspiracy Theory argument for the truth of Mormonism

Post by Moksha »

Any thoughts on the theory that Q, Trump, and Smith co-translated the Book of Mormon? You know you can trust Trump to tell the truth on this.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
User avatar
Gadianton
God
Posts: 3843
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:56 pm
Location: Elsewhere

Re: The Conspiracy Theory argument for the truth of Mormonism

Post by Gadianton »

How do you explain 75 million people who affirm the election was stolen? C'mon, you can't keep a secret among 75 people can you? Somebody will come forward.
User avatar
Dr. Shades
Founder and Visionary
Posts: 1874
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:48 pm
Contact:

Re: The Conspiracy Theory argument for the truth of Mormonism

Post by Dr. Shades »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:39 pm
So what do you think about DCP employing this argument for the truthfulness of the LDS church?
I think that many hundreds of times more people have claimed to see Bigfoot than ever claimed to see the golden plates, so by that logic Bigfoot is far more likely to exist than the golden plates.
"It’s ironic that the Church that people claim to be true, puts so much effort into hiding truths."
--I Have Questions, 01-25-2024
Post Reply