Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

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Themis
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Themis »

Equality wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:08 am
That has nothing to do with what you said. You asserted that if Oliver knew it was a fraud, he would have exposed it. I pointed out that your assertion rested on the premise that Oliver would have felt safe to expose the fraudulent enterprise. Saying there were "other witnesses" does not speak to the issue at all.

There are many reasons why co-conspirators (whether one or eleven) might find it in their self-interest not to expose a fraud they participated in. Can you think of any? Or are you arguing that whenever a co-conspirator has falling out with one or more of his fellow gang members the co-conspirator will publicly expose the gang's activities?
When you have really bad arguments keep shifting the discussion. He has done it a number of times in this thread.
drumdude
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

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Here's the power of The Witnesses - their credulity.

James Strang, claiming to be Smith's chosen successor, also produced buried plates and the testimony of eleven witnesses to their authenticity. All living witnesses to the Book of Mormon (except possibly Cowdery)—three of the Whitmers, Martin Harris, and Hiram Page—accepted at least briefly Strang's "leadership, angelic call, metal plates, and his translation of these plates as authentic."

There is no direct evidence that any of the above 11 Strang witnesses ever denied their testimony of James Strang, the Voree Plates, Strang’s church, or Strang’s divine calling. Every single living Book of Mormon witness besides Oliver Cowdery accepted Strang’s prophetic claim of being Joseph’s true successor and joined him and his church. Additionally, every single member of Joseph Smith’s family except for Hyrum’s widow also endorsed, joined, and sustained James Strang as “Prophet, Seer, and Revelator.”
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Moksha
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Moksha »

Sledge wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:13 pm
Are you referring to me? I'm not an apologist.

What's the big deal about a hat?
For all we know, Mark Twain and Jacqueline Susann might have stuck their heads in a white stovepipe hat and gazed upon a seer stone for hours on end.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
IHAQ
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by IHAQ »

The Witnesses team decided to use a black hat as a film prop rather than a historically accurate white one. For a film that claimed to be attempting to give an honest portrayal this seems like a simple thing to get right. White stove pipe hats are available from Amazon for a mere $11.30 plus postage.
https://www.amazon.com/Forum-Novelties- ... 19&sr=8-13

So why didn’t they?
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Sledge
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Sledge »

Equality wrote: Your conclusion rests on the notion that Oliver Cowdery would feel safe to expose the fraud.
Okay, yeah, maybe he wouldn't have been. But there are two other primary witnesses who disaffected but never "exposed the fraud." That's why having more than one is so powerful, and no, it's not shifting the discussion to say that.
Equality
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Equality »

drumdude wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:36 am
Here's the power of The Witnesses - their credulity.

James Strang, claiming to be Smith's chosen successor, also produced buried plates and the testimony of eleven witnesses to their authenticity. All living witnesses to the Book of Mormon (except possibly Cowdery)—three of the Whitmers, Martin Harris, and Hiram Page—accepted at least briefly Strang's "leadership, angelic call, metal plates, and his translation of these plates as authentic."

There is no direct evidence that any of the above 11 Strang witnesses ever denied their testimony of James Strang, the Voree Plates, Strang’s church, or Strang’s divine calling. Every single living Book of Mormon witness besides Oliver Cowdery accepted Strang’s prophetic claim of being Joseph’s true successor and joined him and his church. Additionally, every single member of Joseph Smith’s family except for Hyrum’s widow also endorsed, joined, and sustained James Strang as “Prophet, Seer, and Revelator.”
Let me guess--those pesky facts didn't make it into the film, and Sister Sledge doesn't find their testimony about Strang and the Voree Plates "powerful."
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Sledge
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Sledge »

drumdude wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:36 am
Here's the power of The Witnesses - their credulity.

James Strang, claiming to be Smith's chosen successor, also produced buried plates and the testimony of eleven witnesses to their authenticity. All living witnesses to the Book of Mormon (except possibly Cowdery)—three of the Whitmers, Martin Harris, and Hiram Page—accepted at least briefly Strang's "leadership, angelic call, metal plates, and his translation of these plates as authentic."

There is no direct evidence that any of the above 11 Strang witnesses ever denied their testimony of James Strang, the Voree Plates, Strang’s church, or Strang’s divine calling. Every single living Book of Mormon witness besides Oliver Cowdery accepted Strang’s prophetic claim of being Joseph’s true successor and joined him and his church. Additionally, every single member of Joseph Smith’s family except for Hyrum’s widow also endorsed, joined, and sustained James Strang as “Prophet, Seer, and Revelator.”
It's so weird that people here and at the exMormon Reddit keep bringing up these long-debunked arguments. It's like DCP's "Zombies" comment about the CES letter. Just recycled bad arguments.

DCP's Deseret News Article
notes that there were probably plates, but that they were likely made out of French cooking ware popular at the time:
DCP in the Deseret News wrote:Among the many who saw them was Stephen Post, who reported that they were brass and, indeed, that they resembled the French brass used in familiar kitchen kettles. "With all the faith & confidence that I could exercise," he wrote, "all that I could realize was that Strang made the plates himself, or at least that it was possible that he made them."
The witnesses are totally different, with many of them walking back their testimonies. Here's the FAIR Wiki on the matter.

So you're wrong drumdude.
Themis
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Themis »

Sledge wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:00 pm
Equality wrote: Your conclusion rests on the notion that Oliver Cowdery would feel safe to expose the fraud.
Okay, yeah, maybe he wouldn't have been. But there are two other primary witnesses who disaffected but never "exposed the fraud." That's why having more than one is so powerful, and no, it's not shifting the discussion to say that.
You certainly have been shifting the discussion as a way to avoid arguments made against yours. Now the other two primary witnesses being in on fraud or not is not relevant to whether Oliver would feel motivated enough to expose his involvement in fraud to try and bring down Joseph or the religion they both help create. Would you expose your wrong doings, like robbing a bank, just to stick it to your friend who took all the money? I doubt very few would. I agree that there is some motivation to do so, but also many other motivations to not expose yourself.
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by drumdude »

Sledge wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:11 pm
So you're wrong drumdude.
Isn't it amazing how easily the plates were debunked once so many people could actually see them? Every single "Witness" to Joseph's plates was either a friend, family member, of financial backer.

You and DCP have so much faith, Sledge. So much credulity. You would make great witnesses.
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Sledge
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Sledge »


Isn't it amazing how easily the plates were debunked once so many people could actually see them? Every single "Witness" to Joseph's plates was either a friend, family member, of financial backer.

You and DCP have so much faith, Sledge. So much credulity. You would make great witnesses.
Admit you’re wrong and let’s move on to the next tired, worn-out, long debunked antiMormon argument.
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