Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

[Themis]

Joseph Smith used a hat to hide the fact that there were no words appearing on the stone.

In case that hasn't been pointed out in a while.

I still think the big problem here for people in and out of the church is a stone in a hat stinks of fraud and trickery. This method Joseph used he learned from people around him. It was a common tactic used to trick people. People have a hard time really believing people could actually see things in a stone like where treasure or missing items are located. It makes it harder to accept that Joseph could or that God would use such a fraudulent method to reveal things. That's why members much prefer images of Joseph with the God made spectacles(U&T) looking through them at the plates. Feels more believable.

[Shulem]

LOL! The CES letter is a propagandistic gish gallop. It asks no new questions. It provides no new thinking on any of its subjects. It's author doesn't even understand many of the "arguments" they make. And, on top of that, it's been totally annihilated by Bennett and FAIR.

Feel free to open a thread on the Book of Abraham and send me an invite. Show me how the CES Letter has been annihilated and I'll be happy to drill you a new one and grind you up.

I dare you. Go ahead. I double dare you.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

TaPS is, what, up to three people he can’t believe were Mormon? The sheer hubris to assume his ignorance is the starting point for knowledgeable discussion with regard to Mormonism can only be achieved through a lifetime dedicated to being as stupid as damned possible while being told yer sphesul and electud. Also, why has MG and Sledge never been seen in the same room at the same time? Weird.

- Doc

[drumdude]

It's a very odd reflex, to claim people on this board just stumbled in without ever having been LDS. Like atheists and christians are just searching for places to go argue about a religion they've never been involved in.

I guess persecution complex makes the world look like that.

[Rivendale]

I still think the big problem here for people in and out of the church is a stone in a hat stinks

One of the reasons that the church did not publish pictures of Joseph's head buried in the hat was the fear that it appeared he was
throwing up in the hat. Averting the sick Joseph descriptions.

[Sledge]

Most LDS do believe they are. What you are being asked to do is articulate why? Way more people saw and handled the kinder-hook plates and believe they were ancient records. We both agree they were not ancient, but a fraud. So why should the 8 witnesses who supposedly saw and handled the gold plates be a better witness to them being ancient then the witnesses of faked kinder-hook plates? The kinder-hook plates were open for all to see and handle. The gold plates were not. Joseph controlled the experience of the 8 on where, when and how they viewed them. The 3 witnesses make more supernatural claims, but all 11 still have reasonable questions of how they saw and experienced the plates. Were any of the eleven in a position to reasonably know if the plates were actual ancient records from physically viewing them?

The three witnesses are one of the most powerful evidences for the plates and the Book of Mormon because they never rescinded their testimonies even though in some cases they were virulently against Joseph Smith. They would have loved to have taken him down as a fraud, and they had every chance to do so, but they could not deny what they witnessed.

The witnesses for the Kinderhook Plates are not comparable. Those plates were a fraud.

I understand if you've never been Mormon, but if you are going to discuss it I insist that you learn the basics about it. We do not believe that "Native Americans are Jewish" or that "millions of Hebrew people had giant battles in Mezoamerica." Where are you getting this stuff?

The church has taught this from Joseph to our day. Maybe not exactly where some of the events took place in the America's. They don't empathize it as much today, but most members still have these views, but there is a growing number who have altered their view to the Book of Mormon representing a very small group of people, even though the Book of Mormon mentions millions. Are you an active LDS member? I sometimes wonder.

The Book of Mormon doesn't claim any of that. It's not doctrine.

[drumdude]

they never rescinded their testimonies

The plates and the angel was so compelling that:

1) Cowdry switched from Mormonism to the Methodist Church
2) Martin Harris adopted some Shaker beliefs
3) Whitmer founded the Church of Christ (Whitmerite)

[Moksha]

It's a shame god didn't just snap their fingers and make everyone a Mormon from day 1.

Perhaps He is into M. Night Shyamalan endings and we have been Mormons all along but did not know it. Now we have a huge load of tithing to forward to the Brethren in Spirit Paradise so we can get out tickets to the pearly gates.

[Shulem]

The three witnesses are one of the most powerful evidences for the plates and the Book of Mormon because they never rescinded their testimonies even though in some cases they were virulently against Joseph Smith. They would have loved to have taken him down as a fraud, and they had every chance to do so, but they could not deny what they witnessed.

Let me explain something to you so you can understand. Those men were not about to deny their testimonies and admit that things were not quite as they expressed prior. To do so would have been a confession that they were involved in an exaggeration and that the original claims were were not quite what they said they were. In other words, they would have admitted they were liars themselves and thus their character as such would be forever tarnished in their communities and whatnot. They protected their reputations in the best manner they could. They held the line!

[Shulem]

The witnesses for the Kinderhook Plates are not comparable. Those plates were a fraud.

The Facsimile No. 3 is a correct reproduction of the original vignette from the papyrus in which Smith translated and the Explanations of that Facsimile are 100% fraudulent.