Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

[drumdude]

The witnesses for the Kinderhook Plates are not comparable. Those plates were a fraud.

The Facsimile No. 3 is a correct reproduction of the original vignette from the papyrus in which Smith translated and the Explanations of that Facsimile are 100% fraudulent.

Anticipating Sledge dredging up tired old rebuttals from DCP:

1) We don't have the whole papyrus
2) Joseph was inspired and the papyrus was a catalyst
3) Our ways are not the Lord's ways

[Shulem]

Anticipating Sledge dredging up tired old rebuttals from DCP:

1) We don't have the whole papyrus
2) Joseph was inspired and the papyrus was a catalyst
3) Our ways are not the Lord's ways

Not a problem. I can handle all that. He is welcome to start a new thread and show me the errors of my ways.

[Sledge]

The Facsimile No. 3 is a correct reproduction of the original vignette from the papyrus in which Smith translated and the Explanations of that Facsimile are 100% fraudulent.

We're talking about the Book of Mormon witnesses, Shulem. I agree with you about the Book of Abraham.

[Shulem]

The Facsimile No. 3 is a correct reproduction of the original vignette from the papyrus in which Smith translated and the Explanations of that Facsimile are 100% fraudulent.

We're talking about the Book of Mormon witnesses, Shulem. I agree with you about the Book of Abraham.

Okay then. That is well. You have a nice day.

[Sledge]

The plates and the angel was so compelling that:

1) Cowdry[sic] switched from Mormonism to the Methodist Church

Please cite where Cowdery denied his testimony of what he witnessed or of the Book of Mormon.

2) Martin Harris adopted some Shaker beliefs

Please cite where Harris denied his testimony of what he witnessed or of the Book of Mormon.

3) Whitmer founded the Church of Christ (Whitmerite)

Please cite where Whitmer denied his testimony of what he witnessed or of the Book of Mormon.

[Sledge]

Let me explain something to you so you can understand. Those men were not about to deny their testimonies and admit that things were not quite as they expressed prior. To do so would have been a confession that they were involved in an exaggeration and that the original claims were were not quite what they said they were. In other words, they would have admitted they were liars themselves and thus their character as such would be forever tarnished in their communities and whatnot. They protected their reputations in the best manner they could. They held the line!

No way. I don't buy that for a second. These men wanted Joseph to suffer--they were PISSED. They wanted to see him go down in flames.

[Sledge]

I'm old enough to remember the introduction to the Book of Mormon that the missionaries gave me before I was baptized. Before the LDS church changed it.

Maybe you're not old enough to remember what it said.

Remember that part where the Book of Mormon itself (not the intro page) made any of those claims?

[Shulem]

Let me explain something to you so you can understand. Those men were not about to deny their testimonies and admit that things were not quite as they expressed prior. To do so would have been a confession that they were involved in an exaggeration and that the original claims were were not quite what they said they were. In other words, they would have admitted they were liars themselves and thus their character as such would be forever tarnished in their communities and whatnot. They protected their reputations in the best manner they could. They held the line!

No way. I don't buy that for a second. These men wanted Joseph to suffer--they were PISSED. They wanted to see him go down in flames.

Maybe so, but they didn't want to go down with him. Admitting to lying or exaggerating is a serious thing when you're trying to make a living and establish yourself in a community and/or maintain respect. They rode it out and learned to accept the consequences of their actions. They made their beds.

[Themis]

The three witnesses are one of the most powerful evidences for the plates and the Book of Mormon because they never rescinded their testimonies even though in some cases they were virulently against Joseph Smith. They would have loved to have taken him down as a fraud, and they had every chance to do so, but they could not deny what they witnessed.

You mentioned that some of the stragite witnesses walked back some of their testimonies of brass plates, but if you look up the sources, some of which you linked, we only have people who supposedly they told it did not happen as they originally claimed. We have similar walk backs with the three witnesses. Martin Harris has many people who claim he admits he did not see the plates with his natural eye, like John H Gilbert who was a typesetter for most of the Book of Mormon. Even someone who talked to Emma's father says Joseph admitted to his fraud. We have indications the 8 witnesses did not see the plates except under a cloth. History is messy and this is certainly true for all the witnesses for the Book of Mormon. Doesn't mean gold plates didn't exist, but the fog of history doesn't make for great evidence.

The witnesses for the Kinderhook Plates are not comparable. Those plates were a fraud.

They very comparable to the account of the 8 witnesses as the church promotes. None of them even if they got to see either plates would be qualified to know if they were real ancient records. Only that they looked like plate. One difference is the kinder-hook were openly viewed, while the gold plates were not.

The Book of Mormon doesn't claim any of that. It's not doctrine.

You should try reading it first. Both Nephites and Lamanites were claimed to be of hebrew origin. At the end of the Book of Mormon Moroni tells us the last remnants of the Nephites, who has already lost many of their people to death or going over to the Lamanites, had an army of a 1/4 million. The Book of Mormon list armies earlier numbering in the 10's of thousands, and the Jaredites, who were not Hebrew, millions at their last battles.

[Sledge]

Maybe so, but they didn't want to go down with him. Admitting to lying or exaggerating is a serious thing when you're trying to make a living and establish yourself in a community and/or maintain respect. They rode it out and learned to accept the consequences of their actions. They made their beds.

On their death beds? No effing way.