Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

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malkie
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by malkie »

Sledge wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:49 pm
You think DCP responding to all of these bricks in the wall of Mormon criticism defeats the wall. Yet the proof that the wall remains is that the Mormon church for nearly 200 years has never become anything more than an oddity in the larger Christian and religious world. The CES letter allows former Mormons to see their religion how the rest of the world sees it - as a giant collection of absurdities and impossibilities that require suspension of logic and critical thinking to be a part of.
LOL! The CES letter is a propagandistic gish gallop. It asks no new questions. It provides no new thinking on any of its subjects. It's author doesn't even understand many of the "arguments" they make. And, on top of that, it's been totally annihilated by Bennett and FAIR.
  • in my opinion, the CES letter is probably as much propaganda as anything produced by FAIR.
  • "Gish Gallop" is a term used in a debate, where "a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of many specious arguments, half-truths, and misrepresentations in a short space of time, which makes it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format of a formal debate."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
    Since it is in written form, you can take all the time you want to respond to each of the points in the Letter, so "Gish Gallop" is not really an appropriate term in this case. However, If I recall correctly, Professor Peterson has used the term in describing the Letter, so some folks think it's OK to do so.
  • As far as I am aware, there was never any obligation on the part of the author of the CES Letter to ask new questions, or to provide new thinking. Whether he does so or not may be a matter of opinion.
  • Whether the author understands many of the "arguments" in the CES Letter may be a matter of opinion. You have shown no proof of this assertion.
  • Here is FAIR's summary of the Letter:
    Image
    For 56% of the content, they do not claim falsehoods or errors. "Spin" is subjective - likely meaning that they didn't like the conclusions that Runnels drew, or his "tone", but they could not say he was wrong, or (I'm sure) they would have done so.
    This is what you call "totally annihilated"?
    I'd call it a fair success for the CES Letter.
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Sledge
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Sledge »

malkie wrote: This is what you call "totally annihilated"?
I'd call it a fair success for the CES Letter.
Could you tell me one new thing or one interesting piece of research that can be found in the CES Letter?

The annihilation comes from Bennet's answer

https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org ... -who-doubt
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malkie
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by malkie »

Sledge wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:52 pm
malkie wrote: This is what you call "totally annihilated"?
I'd call it a fair success for the CES Letter.
Could you tell me one new thing or one interesting piece of research that can be found in the CES Letter?
If you can show me where I made such a claim, I'll respond.
The annihilation comes from Bennet's answer

https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org ... -who-doubt
You said "it's been totally annihilated by Bennett and FAIR." So, not FAIR - just Bennett.

Bennett explicitly states that he recognizes that he doesn’t have any new information or new perspective. If Bennett's response is so much better than that of FAIR, this makes me wonder if FAIR really put any serious effort into debunking the CES Letter.

I started to read the "faithful answers", but I'm afraid I find his snark more than a little off-putting.

I may find time to read some more, but I expect that I'll wait for Jeremy's response to Bennett - should be out soon.

In the meantime, however, it's worth noting that the reddit-mormonscholar thread suggests very strongly that Bennett's confidence in his rebuttal of the CES Letter may be a little overstated.
https://www.reddit.com/r/mormonscholar/ ... _faithful/
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by drumdude »

CES letter is an introduction to the problems of Mormonism. It doesn't claim to be anything else.

It's a bit like saying quantum physics must be wrong because there are mistakes on the wikipedia page for quantum physics. The wikipedia page doesn't claim to be 100% accurate or complete, it is a starting point for people to begin learning.

FAIR maintains a similar encyclopedia of apologetic responses. The problem with FAIR is that it assumes that Mormonism is true, when the burden of proof is on Mormonism's extraordinary claims. No matter what axe Runnels has to grind, he is on the side that the rest of the world is on - Mormonism is false until proven otherwise.
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Equality »

Sledge wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:21 pm
drumdude wrote:
I'm old enough to remember the introduction to the Book of Mormon that the missionaries gave me before I was baptized. Before the LDS church changed it.

Maybe you're not old enough to remember what it said.
Remember that part where the Book of Mormon itself (not the intro page) made any of those claims?
From the Title Page (supposedly written by Mormon and translated by Joseph Smith):
"Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel;"

And "the Introduction is some Grade-A BS fraudulent garbage" isn't the "own" you think it is. Who do you think wrote and approved and canonized the Introduction to the Book of Mormon? I mean, if you want to say the current crop of leadership in TSCC are a bunch of fraudulent clowns, you won't get much argument from me.

It's always funny when the apologists have to throw the prophets under the bus to try to defend disproven Mormon doctrines.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Grade-A BS, you say?

Image

A face shoved in a hat pretending to read a rock. Bell-shaped plates fooling the Saints. Funerary scrolls duping dupes. Masonic larping passed off as Israelite temple rituals. $100B for a rainy day fund.

Image

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Moksha
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Moksha »

huckelberry wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:56 am
If God wanted to send a long text to Joseph Smith I cannot think of any better way than a stone in a hat.
What if God had spoken to Joseph through a burning bush or beamed him into a spaceship and implanted the knowledge via a thorough probing?
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Themis
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Themis »

huckelberry wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:33 pm
Themis, I believe that everybody knows that rocks in a hat is a device with no ability to translate or create stories.
It might be more accurate to say most don't. Many obviously did in the past, and present, or these tricks would never have been successful on a certain portion of the population.
Rocks do not find treasures or perform magic. People who believe the Book of Mormon do not think the rock had power they believe God used Joseph and his toy rock thing. It would be God's power.
I think you will find some LDS who will believe the seer stone did have magical qualities you wouldn't find in most stones. That is why it was called a seer stone and not just stone.
I thought to add about methods used by frauds and tricksters. I am unfamiliar with any books created by fraud using a rock and hat,well outside of the possibility of Joseph's book.
The method is called glass looking and it was used for many different types of fraud and trickery in Joseph's day. Today it could be compared to the crystal ball. It's problematic for the church with people in and out of the church. If people see the connection it has with fraud and trickery and no real connection to actually working, people will start to think maybe Joseph was also being fraudulent. This gets worse if they see that he did use it in a fraudulent way when he conned a man of his money to pretend to look for treasure. Some people will question God doing something that looks very unwise, and people will ask if it looks and quacks like a duck, maybe it really is a duck. That can have a real affect of opening ones mind.
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by Fence Sitter »

huckelberry wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:33 pm
Themis, I believe that everybody knows that rocks in a hat is a device with no ability to translate or create stories.
Rocks do not find treasures or perform magic. People who believe the Book of Mormon do not think the rock had power they believe God used Joseph and his toy rock thing. It would be God's power.
Themis wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:52 am
I think you will find some LDS who will believe the seer stone did have magical qualities you wouldn't find in most stones. That is why it was called a seer stone and not just stone.
Actually the power of the seer stone by itself is codified in LDS scripture.
13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish.
So LDS actually believe that looking at the stones without God's permission can cause death. They are not just props in LDS theology.
HARRY THE HAGGLER: Stones, sir?

MANDY: Naah. They've got a lot there, lying around on the ground.

HARRY THE HAGGLER: Oh, not like these, sir. Look at this. Feel the quality of that. That's craftsmanship, sir.
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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Post by huckelberry »

Moksha wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:41 am
huckelberry wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:56 am
If God wanted to send a long text to Joseph Smith I cannot think of any better way than a stone in a hat.
What if God had spoken to Joseph through a burning bush or beamed him into a spaceship and implanted the knowledge via a thorough probing?
Moksha, your alternative story would have to include some method for Joseph to access that download and print it out into a book. In those days maybe one would contemplate a rock in a hat and in the silence start to access the narrative. Of course a person might use the same to access ones own story telling muscles.

After all the hat was part of making a real book that has had real world influence. It was not just crystal ball gazing or a carni show where people got to see Joseph spout gibberish.

I do not know how much of the rock was actually useful story telling tool and how much was just theater connecting the story to the reported plates from a reported ancient people. I am observing that the hat was effective storytelling, one I can enjoy as story. At the same time it is theatrical enough that it can suggest to skeptical minds the possibility that the whole plates and ancient story is theater.
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