Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

This is why the apologist has to switch from "look how miraculously fast the Book of Mormon was written" to "look how a dumb, nearly retarded farm boy wrote a book."

The only way the production of the Book of Mormon can look in any way miraculous, is to claim Joseph was as dumb as a rock. Unfortunately we have records of how intelligent Smith was and how easily he weaved tales and memorized scripture.

Please read Morris “A Documentary History of the Book of Mormon” and get back to me.

pLeAsE rEaD a 5o0 pAgE bOoK aNd gEt bAcK tO mE

- Doc

[Shulem]

pLeAsE rEaD a 5o0 pAgE bOoK aNd gEt bAcK tO mE

You could read a 10,000 page book on Joseph Smith's Explanations of Facsimile No. 3, and you'll never learn the name of the king that is written in the writing above the hand. NOT even a 20,000 page book will be able to tell you the alleged king's name.

The Book of Mormon is of the same nature as that of the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3, utter garbage. Lies.



The Book of Mormon is the perfect definition of "SIN".

[Sledge]

pLeAsE rEaD a 5o0 pAgE bOoK aNd gEt bAcK tO mE

- Doc

Is reading too much to ask? I quite enjoy it.

[Themis]

Is reading too much to ask? I quite enjoy it.

People who read are usually willing to articulate some of what they read. Those who like to pretend to read never do.

[Themis]

Also do you know how hard it is to make up a coherent, internally consistent story when your head is in a hat?

Another interesting thing about the head in a hat creation of the Book of Mormon is that witness statements only represent a fraction of the supposed translation. Joseph and Oliver had many years to make statements about it but stayed very quiet on any details of what was going on in the supposed translation. Also what little statements from others about seeing a scribe write down what Joseph was saying while his head was in a hat have no way to know if those words ever made it into the Book of Mormon that we have today. The creation of the Book of Mormon, including the many changes made in preparation for printing, were controlled by Joseph and Oliver.

[Sledge]

Another interesting thing about the head in a hat creation of the Book of Mormon is that witness statements only represent a fraction of the supposed translation. Joseph and Oliver had many years to make statements about it but stayed very quiet on any details of what was going on in the supposed translation. Also what little statements from others about seeing a scribe write down what Joseph was saying while his head was in a hat have no way to know if those words ever made it into the Book of Mormon that we have today. The creation of the Book of Mormon, including the many changes made in preparation for printing, were controlled by Joseph and Oliver.

This is a common line of reasoning, and it’s very silly.

Oliver Cowdrey disaffected and disassociated from the church. If he was in on it, he’d expose for the fraud it was, but he never did.

[Equality]

I find this claim of consistency or inconsistency very subjective and in need of real defining to the point one can measure it. Then you would have to find a way to compare with what people are capable of, and how much time does a person have to create a internally consistent story. I'm not sure this can really be done in a very objective way.

Of course you do. It’s convenient for you to have this subjective view.

That’s why I listen to what the scholars and the best research has to say on the matter, not what “Themis” has to say.

First, the Book of Mormon is neither entirely internally consistent nor coherent.

Second, even if it were, that would mean only that the author(s) successfully created a work of fiction that is internally consistent and coherent (which authors of fiction accomplish all the time). Is it difficult to accomplish this feat? Sure, ok. But all that proves (again, accepting the premise, arguendo, that the Book of Mormon is both coherent and internally consistent) is that whoever wrote the Book of Mormon was able to accomplish a feat that, while difficult, has been done by many, many people over the years.

The "best research" you refer to must include some research by non-Mormons, right? Please provide a list of the same.

I mean, you wouldn't accept a Scientologist's assertion that the "best research" on Scientology exclusively was composed of research by believing Scientologists, would you?

[Themis]

This is a common line of reasoning, and it’s very silly.

Oliver Cowdrey disaffected and disassociated from the church. If he was in on it, he’d expose for the fraud it was, but he never did.

What you are proposing is a little silly. It's like robbing a bank for 10 million with a friend who later runs off with all the money and you decide to tell police your involvement in stealing the money. I don't see why he would want to expose his own involvement in fraud ruining his reputation. He could, but I don't see enough motivation to do so given this and other factors. He helped create a religion that was doing well, even if he was currently on the out with Joseph or later other leaders of the different Mormon groups. I don't see him hating Joseph enough to take them both down. Especially after Joseph was gone.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Another interesting thing about the head in a hat creation of the Book of Mormon is that witness statements only represent a fraction of the supposed translation. Joseph and Oliver had many years to make statements about it but stayed very quiet on any details of what was going on in the supposed translation. Also what little statements from others about seeing a scribe write down what Joseph was saying while his head was in a hat have no way to know if those words ever made it into the Book of Mormon that we have today. The creation of the Book of Mormon, including the many changes made in preparation for printing, were controlled by Joseph and Oliver.

This is a common line of reasoning, and it’s very silly.

Oliver Cowdrey disaffected and disassociated from the church. If he was in on it, he’d expose for the fraud it was, but he never did.

You literally don’t know that. We don’t have statements on record to that effect, and so you have no idea what he said and to whom. We also have a very wealthy church willing to buy documents they believe are embarrassing or hurtful to its image, so we have no idea what’s been bought, what’s been destroyed (Joseph F. Smith, ftw on that one), what’s been lost, or what’s never been shared. That statement, that OC or whomever, nEvEr rEcAnTeD doesn’t acknowledge that they left in the first place. That’s hugely problematic because you’re trying to tell me that a dude that was set apart by this guy



just bumped and was like, “I’m out.”

What’s more likely? A guy who had angel hands on his dome goes into apostasy, or the story was bunk, regardless if you have a statement of disbelief or not? Don’t answer this, because you’re a fool and a troll, so whatever you fart out is pointless.

- Doc

[Equality]

Another interesting thing about the head in a hat creation of the Book of Mormon is that witness statements only represent a fraction of the supposed translation. Joseph and Oliver had many years to make statements about it but stayed very quiet on any details of what was going on in the supposed translation. Also what little statements from others about seeing a scribe write down what Joseph was saying while his head was in a hat have no way to know if those words ever made it into the Book of Mormon that we have today. The creation of the Book of Mormon, including the many changes made in preparation for printing, were controlled by Joseph and Oliver.

This is a common line of reasoning, and it’s very silly.

Oliver Cowdrey disaffected and disassociated from the church. If he was in on it, he’d expose for the fraud it was, but he never did.

Your conclusion rests on the notion that Oliver Cowdery would feel safe to expose the fraud.