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Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:42 am
by drumdude
lmao

Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:45 am
by Sledge
drumdude wrote:
Did you never interact with anyone in the ward?
Your flailing now. You suppose your experience in the church must be everyone’s experience in the church. What you describe is foreign to me and my experience. This is why I question whether you were Mormon.

Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:51 am
by drumdude
Sledge wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:45 am
drumdude wrote:
Did you never interact with anyone in the ward?
Your flailing now. You suppose your experience in the church must be everyone’s experience in the church. What you describe is foreign to me and my experience. This is why I question whether you were Mormon.
I'm honestly trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here. No one in your ward talked to you about the native americans being lamanites? They never mentioned the tribes that were assigned to different people in their patriarchal blessings? They never talked about the Polynesians in your ward?

No one ever mentioned any prophets or church leaders directly calling native Americans descendants of the lamanites?

Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:54 am
by drumdude
Hell I'll even give you a direct quote from FAIR on this.
Many Church leaders, most notably Spencer W. Kimball, have made clear statements regarding the belief that Lehi was the exclusive ancestor of all native Americans.
https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... ts_of_Lehi

Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:03 am
by huckelberry
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:01 am
huckelberry wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:56 am
I like hats and I like stone ...

“Hrm ... what does it say? The light isn’t quite right. Let me take a closer look ...

- Doc
Aw Doc, you usually do much better than this. No matter what exactly you think of Joseph's tale which he pulled out of that hat it certainly has more entertainment than a simple dumb insult.

Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:00 pm
by dantana
Well, I've always thought the whole thing was pretty obvious. Joe and Ollie put on a show for the random visitor. Joe, with face in hat would spout gibberish for a few minutes. How would that visitor know if that gibberish was actually written down in the same verbiage in the finished Book of Mormon. Especially since it's all just repeating patterns of gibberish anyway.

The whole thing just really comes down to the word of two guys. Joe and Ollie. Since it's axiomatic that Joe is a scoundrel, what about Ollie? Let's see, Well, he claimed that John the B. and then P, J and J appeared to him. So, for those of us who know that things like that don't happen, everything he says is automatically classified as BS.

And another thing. Among the Abrahamic religions there has only been a small handful of people whom god has talked to or sent envoys to. Ollie was one. A person would think that that would be a substantial, indelible, dramatic, permanently life altering event. Yet... - Ollie - So look god, thankyou for sending John the B. and P,B and J to give me the holy hand grenades, but, this guy Joseph is shagging every Fanny he sees. He's even humping my leg. So, even though I know the church is troo, I'm gonna have to go join this other church that isn't troo. Catch you later.

Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:21 pm
by Themis
huckelberry wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:56 am
If God wanted to send a long text to Joseph Smith I cannot think of any better way than a stone in a hat.
I think the issues revolves around this method being used by frauds and tricksters, with Joseph himself being payed to look for treasure with his stone in a hat. The technique in how they conned people are well known, and we have no evidence to suggest this method really works other then conning people out of their money or ticking them into believing things which are not true. That's a problem, and one would wonder why God would use such a method with only a fraudulent history.

Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:33 pm
by huckelberry
Themis wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:21 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:56 am
If God wanted to send a long text to Joseph Smith I cannot think of any better way than a stone in a hat.
I think the issues revolves around this method being used by frauds and tricksters, with Joseph himself being payed to look for treasure with his stone in a hat. The technique in how they conned people are well known, and we have no evidence to suggest this method really works other then conning people out of their money or ticking them into believing things which are not true. That's a problem, and one would wonder why God would use such a method with only a fraudulent history.
Themis, I believe that everybody knows that rocks in a hat is a device with no ability to translate or create stories. Rocks do not find treasures or perform magic. People who believe the Book of Mormon do not think the rock had power they believe God used Joseph and his toy rock thing. It would be God's power. Perhaps God wanted people to recognize Gods power presenting something far more substantial than childish treasure searches.

//////
I thought to add about methods used by frauds and tricksters. I am unfamiliar with any books created by fraud using a rock and hat,well outside of the possibility of Joseph's book.

Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:19 pm
by Holy Ghost
Sledge wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:22 pm
drumdude wrote:
It's a shame God didn't make the plates out of brass, so that the wicked evil men of the world wouldn't put the Smith family in such danger.

But then the plates weren't even necessary because he had the stone. And on and on the ridiculous 19th century legacy of Joe's lies runs...
It's a shame god didn't just snap their fingers and make everyone a Mormon from day 1.
Yep. Mormon Lucifer had a better plan.

Re: Joseph used a hat to translate because his eyes were tired...

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:16 pm
by Doctor CamNC4Me
huckelberry wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:33 pm
I thought to add about methods used by frauds and tricksters. I am unfamiliar with any books created by fraud using a rock and hat,well outside of the possibility of Joseph's book.
Well. Dantana pretty much nails it:
dantana wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:00 pm
Well, I've always thought the whole thing was pretty obvious. Joe and Ollie put on a show for the random visitor. Joe, with face in hat would spout gibberish for a few minutes. How would that visitor know if that gibberish was actually written down in the same verbiage in the finished Book of Mormon. Especially since it's all just repeating patterns of gibberish anyway.

The whole thing just really comes down to the word of two guys. Joe and Ollie. Since it's axiomatic that Joe is a scoundrel, what about Ollie? Let's see, Well, he claimed that John the B. and then P, J and J appeared to him. So, for those of us who know that things like that don't happen, everything he says is automatically classified as BS.

And another thing. Among the Abrahamic religions there has only been a small handful of people whom god has talked to or sent envoys to. Ollie was one. A person would think that that would be a substantial, indelible, dramatic, permanently life altering event. Yet... - Ollie - So look god, thankyou for sending John the B. and P,B and J to give me the holy hand grenades, but, this guy Joseph is shagging every Fanny he sees. He's even humping my leg. So, even though I know the church is troo, I'm gonna have to go join this other church that isn't troo. Catch you later.
So, it’s not like you’d need a handful of fraudsters with their faces shoved in hats pretending to see words on or through a magical stone to somehow validate that Joseph Smith’s particular parlor trick is a legitimate way of tricking people. He did it, and that’s all that was needed in that time and place. Dumb as crap people being duped by a clever sociopath. Now THAT’S a story as old as time.

- Doc