DiscussMormonism.com

malkie wrote: If you can show me where I made such a claim, I'll respond.

You're holding up the CES letter as some near-infallible holy scripture, but it's really regurgitated propaganda.

You said "it's been totally annihilated by Bennett and FAIR." So, not FAIR - just Bennett.

FAIR and Bennett. Since there are no new claims in the CES letter, FAIR has had these answers on-hand the whole time. Bennett just did it in the same format as the CES letter.

Bennett explicitly states that he recognizes that he doesn’t have any new information or new perspective. If Bennett's response is so much better than that of FAIR, this makes me wonder if FAIR really put any serious effort into debunking the CES Letter.

Bennett's is an actual, direct response. FAIR has had the answers on-hand for a long time. Responses generally don't claim anything new. Book reviews, for example, do not add anything to the book.

I started to read the "faithful answers", but I'm afraid I find his snark more than a little off-putting.

Runnel's "snark" is far snarkier than Bennetts, yet you read (and revere) the CES letter. Why?

I may find time to read some more, but I expect that I'll wait for Jeremy's response to Bennett - should be out soon.

LOL, he's already tried to respond. What more is there to say?

In the meantime, however, it's worth noting that the reddit-mormonscholar thread suggests very strongly that Bennett's confidence in his rebuttal of the CES Letter may be a little overstated.
https://www.reddit.com/r/mormonscholar/ ... _faithful/

That's not worth noting at all. That says nothing new.

The fact of the matter is that his face buried in a hat was something a charlatan and con-man did, not to mention those involved in magic and the occult. The same rock he used in the hat to 'translate' was also used in scamming people out of their money claiming he could see buried treasure in the earth which he at one time admitted to Emma's father was a con and that he would stop with the practice. And ask yourself this question... if he could really see buried treasure in the earth, why not just use your power to procure the treasure for yourself instead of charging others money to find it for them? So he just moved from scrying/glass-looking to fool people into thinking he had power to see buried treasure to fabricating scripture and creating his own religion - Lucy Mack Smith is on record saying he could make up stories and entertain his family for hours as a lad. Knowing the above makes it obvious he made up the entire religion since he was lazy and didn't want to work for money like most men and was obsessed with wealth, power, control over others and women... creating his own religion satisfied all of those things. Today, the 'church' is nothing more than a multi-hundred billion dollar real estate corporation masquerading as a religion while enjoying tax-exempt status... Smith would be proud of what it is today.

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:11 pm

The fact of the matter is that his face buried in a hat was something a charlatan and con-man did
-snip-
why not just use your power to procure the treasure for yourself instead of charging others money to find it for them?

LOL. Yeah, the original late night - how to get rich at real-estate- infomercial scammer guy.

Also, I'd say it's kinda odd as to what gets designated - sacred, secret and holy and what doesn't. Common engraved record plates get guarded by armed angles and taken back up to heaven, yet, here is god himself, talking live, in real time to a guy via a hat, getting treated as a sideshow for the random visitor.

Sledge wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:54 pm

malkie wrote: If you can show me where I made such a claim, I'll respond.

You're holding up the CES letter as some near-infallible holy scripture, but it's really regurgitated propaganda.

Sorry - that's so far from the truth that I won't bother to respond - it's not worth the effort to reply to such exaggeration.

dantana wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:36 pm

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:11 pm

The fact of the matter is that his face buried in a hat was something a charlatan and con-man did
-snip-
why not just use your power to procure the treasure for yourself instead of charging others money to find it for them?

LOL. Yeah, the original late night - how to get rich at real-estate- infomercial scammer guy.

Also, I'd say it's kinda odd as to what gets designated - sacred, secret and holy and what doesn't. Common engraved record plates get guarded by armed angles and taken back up to heaven, yet, here is god himself, talking live, in real time to a guy via a hat, getting treated as a sideshow for the random visitor.

Dantana spittin’ facts, lately! Nice.



The Devil: And the stone allows you to locate buried treasure!

Rick: And *burp* lemme guess. Everytime you excavate, the treasure slips further into the earth?

The Devil: Well, I, yes, but you could just charge fools to locate buried treasure on their farms.

Rick: No, thanks. I already got tarred and feathered once for milking the cow without buying it, if ya know what I mean.

The Devil: No, I don’t think I do.

Rick: I screwed Fanny Alger in the barn.

- Doc

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:11 pm

And ask yourself this question... if he could really see buried treasure in the earth, why not just use your power to procure the treasure for yourself instead of charging others money to find it for them?

Exhibit #1 that Joseph was a fraud and knew he was a fraud. If Joseph believed he could find things like Hidden treasure he would be going out and looking for treasure on his own. You don't work for someone else who is paying you to look for treasure and will end up taking most or all of any treasure found. You work for others to look for treasure because you know it's a fraud, AND you have to convince them you can see hidden treasure. Joseph was a scoundrel from an early age.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:22 pm

I do not know how much of the rock was actually a useful storytelling tool and how much was just theater connecting the story to the reported plates from a reported ancient people. I am observing that the hat was effective storytelling, one I can enjoy as a story. At the same time, it is theatrical enough that it can suggest to skeptical minds the possibility that the whole plates and ancient story is theater.

Here is the perfect soundtrack to accompany the use of the Hat and the Stone (see at 2:15)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VErKCq1IGIU

Themis wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:28 am

BeNotDeceived wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:11 pm

And ask yourself this question... if he could really see buried treasure in the earth, why not just use your power to procure the treasure for yourself instead of charging others money to find it for them?

Exhibit #1 that Joseph was a fraud and knew he was a fraud. If Joseph believed he could find things like Hidden treasure he would be going out and looking for treasure on his own. You don't work for someone else who is paying you to look for treasure and will end up taking most or all of any treasure found. You work for others to look for treasure because you know it's a fraud, AND you have to convince them you can see hidden treasure. Joseph was a scoundrel from an early age.

Also, the fact that, in a premeditated act, he buried a feather on Stowell's farm and later "saw" the feather using the peepstone (similar to the way Peter Popoff would plant healthy people in wheelchairs in his audience and then miraculously "heal" them) in a dramatic show of his superpowers, makes me question the "pious" part of the pious fraud theory some historians of early Mormonism posit.

malkie wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:54 pm

Sledge wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:54 pm

You're holding up the CES letter as some near-infallible holy scripture, but it's really regurgitated propaganda.

Sorry - that's so far from the truth that I won't bother to respond - it's not worth the effort to reply to such exaggeration.

That’s why we call it a straw man.

I thought the CES Letter presented itself quite openly and explicitly as being exactly regurgitated propaganda. Runnells had run into these items of anti-Mormon propaganda, had recognised them as old arguments, and therefore expected to be able to get good, clear answers to them from the CES.