Which is the Better Film: "September Dawn" or "Witnesses"?

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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Which is the Better Film: "September Dawn" or "Witnesses"?

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Sledge
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Re: Which is the Better Film: "September Dawn" or "Witnesses"?

Post by Sledge »


How are you so ignorant of your own faith, of its history, of the earliest words uttered out of the mouths of early Mormon leadership? Good Lord.

- Doc
LOL! You’ve never been Mormon.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Which is the Better Film: "September Dawn" or "Witnesses"?

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Indeed, Reverend. An alternative film we could use as a benchmark, a film depicting the struggles of a man of faith, which was created by a man of faith, is Robert Duvall's 1997 film, The Apostle.

Not only did the film receive critical acclaim and a near perfect review by Roger Ebert himself, but it was made on half of the budget of September Dawn. It was made for 5 million of Duvall's own money. Granted, if made today, it would have cost more, but in fact, it crushed the box office, raking in 21 million. Not exactly Star Wars, but considering it was an "artistic" film, that was pretty darn respectable.

Indeed, Doctor Scratch's brilliant comparison shows the quality of work one is comfortable comparing Witnesses to. Which Turkey of the year was the better turkey? It doesn't feel quite right to put it against Duvall's work. Duvall is a professional! He's a real artist! It's not fair!
The Duvall film is, in my opinion, a masterpiece. I absolutely loved it. There are very few films of its kind that I would put in its company in terms of quality.

I think it would be asking a lot for any film to equal it. I will say, however, that there should be a film about Mormonism fully equal to the finest cinema has to offer. Someday I hope we see that film. I am not asking that Witnesses be that film, but I am glad Witnesses was made, and I hope it ends up making some money.

What will it take to make the great Mormon film? Probably maturity, self-assurance, and greater freedom. Anyone who makes a movie about Mormons with Mormon sensitivities in mind, especially those of the Brethren in mind, is bound to come up short of artistic greatness. There is something transgressive about artistic greatness, something that dares to tread on the shibboleths of the status quo and the powerful. It dares to tell new truths, not merely repeat comfortable mantras. I am certain a Mormon film can do that, if its makers can seek first to make great art and banish insecurity about themselves and of their community from their minds.

Mormonism can produce greatness.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Which is the Better Film: "September Dawn" or "Witnesses"?

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Sledge wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:11 am

How are you so ignorant of your own faith, of its history, of the earliest words uttered out of the mouths of early Mormon leadership? Good Lord.

- Doc
LOL! You’ve never been Mormon.
Definitely might explain why he doesn't have the "EVs shot first" victim complex that Mormons are raised with. Completely ignoring the history of Mormon violence against non-Mormons in the early church years.
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Re: Which is the Better Film: "September Dawn" or "Witnesses"?

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Kishkumen
What will it take to make the great Mormon film? Probably maturity, self-assurance, and greater freedom. Anyone who makes a movie about Mormons with Mormon sensitivities in mind, especially those of the Brethren in mind, is bound to come up short of artistic greatness. There is something transgressive about artistic greatness, something that dares to tread on the shibboleths of the status quo and the powerful. It dares to tell new truths, not merely repeat comfortable mantras. I am certain a Mormon film can do that, if its makers can seek first to make great art and banish insecurity about themselves and of their community from their minds.
Can that come from within? I ask in all seriousness. My suspicion, and the reason why it hasn't happened yet, is because it will take a collective collaboration of both Mormons and non-Mormons to make an epic. And, the Brethren can not be seen as a detriment or determining factor of its finality. Somehow or other, the Brethren have to be neutered in order for this to actually ever get accomplished. They can have no say, and no influence, before or after, something that will take a total miracle. It is the Brethren which prevents it. That is how I see it.

And yet, they didn't stop the Joseph Smith Papers Project, so perhaps there may be a way to actually get it all truthfully out there. But I am skeptical it will be done in my lifetime... the fear of reprisals from the Brethren is the absolute barrier. The concern of their wishes and ways is the absolute barrier. I mean, that all they worry about is not using Mormon anymore and making such a big whoop about such a meagre blip is more than all the proof I need.
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Re: Which is the Better Film: "September Dawn" or "Witnesses"?

Post by Aristotle Smith »

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Last edited by Aristotle Smith on Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Which is the Better Film: "September Dawn" or "Witnesses"?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Aristotle Smith wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:34 am
But if someone says, "Judaism can produce greatness" it's utterly believable. It's already happened and will happen again.
How has it happened?
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Re: Which is the Better Film: "September Dawn" or "Witnesses"?

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Bought Yahoo wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:04 pm
My Jewish client, in a large group of people, stood up, mentioned my name and said I wasn't like that, and walked out.
There is no way you could have massacred an entire wagon train of emigrants by yourself. Your clients were right to defend you.
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Re: Which is the Better Film: "September Dawn" or "Witnesses"?

Post by IHAQ »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:19 pm
Ultimately, assessing a film's qualities is a mug's game. It may be that it's easier to simply say that it's all subjective. But, as I think you can clearly see, there is a case to be made that September Dawn is a better movie than Witnesses.
Doctor Scratch, I worry about you when you have time on your hands. You’re basically asking “What would you rather suffer, ear ache or tooth ache?” The obvious answer is that both are terribly painful…
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Re: Which is the Better Film: "September Dawn" or "Witnesses"?

Post by Kishkumen »

Aristotle Smith wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 4:34 am
Can it? Has it? If so in which areas?

This is a sincere question. Perhaps worthy of a separate thread.

Also not trying to provoke. It's not obvious to me that they can or can't. For example, if someone were to say, "Jehovah's Witnesses can produce greatness" there are several reasons I would doubt that. But if someone says, "Judaism can produce greatness" it's utterly believable. It's already happened and will happen again.
Jehovah’s Witnesses did produce greatness. His name was Prince, and he was a towering musical genius.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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