Which is the Better Film: "September Dawn" or "Witnesses"?

[Doctor Scratch]

Here's a question for Dr. Exiled and the Reverend: What would you consider to be a "Mormon" film? Would something like Apocalypto count? And does September Dawn even count, since it was made by EV anti-Mormons? Would the movie need to have been made by a TBM? Thinking of Apocalypto reminds me that it was directed by hardcore, orthodox-Catholic Mel Gibson. So, does that then make it a *Catholic* movie instead of an (arguably) Mormon one? What about Passion of the Christ? Is that a fundamentally Catholic movie, even though loads of other Christian denominations lapped it up?

I remember reading Pauline Kael's review of The Exorcist, and she said something like, "It's the greatest recruitment poster the Catholic church has ever had." So, is The Exorcist the greatest Catholic film of all time? It's generally regarded as one of--if not *the*--greatest horror films of all time. And you can't deny the religious elements of it: it's one of the things that makes the film so frightening.

Curious what you think....

[Dr Exiled]

Here's a question for Dr. Exiled and the Reverend: What would you consider to be a "Mormon" film? Would something like Apocalypto count? And does September Dawn even count, since it was made by EV anti-Mormons? Would the movie need to have been made by a TBM? Thinking of Apocalypto reminds me that it was directed by hardcore, orthodox-Catholic Mel Gibson. So, does that then make it a *Catholic* movie instead of an (arguably) Mormon one? What about Passion of the Christ? Is that a fundamentally Catholic movie, even though loads of other Christian denominations lapped it up?

I remember reading Pauline Kael's review of The Exorcist, and she said something like, "It's the greatest recruitment poster the Catholic church has ever had." So, is The Exorcist the greatest Catholic film of all time? It's generally regarded as one of--if not *the*--greatest horror films of all time. And you can't deny the religious elements of it: it's one of the things that makes the film so frightening.

Curious what you think....

I would say a Mormon film would be something that promotes the church, essentially Mormon propaganda, like Meet the Mormons, Johnny Lingo, Mr. Kruger's Christmas, Witnesses, etc. The authoritarian church is about selling itself 24/7 so the Fund can grow to $One Trillion some day, and so the message that the church is no. 1 has to be front and center or implied. Mormon films must promote the restoration somehow. Missionary work must be done always. This is probably why a Mormon film won't do well at the box office. It wants more than the ticket price, it wants commitment to the Fund, and that probably is what turns people off. Other films like Apocalypto, had it been made by Mormons, would be incidental to Mormonism, no real ties, just entertainment and no propaganda. Any one could have made Apocalypto. It just so happened to be made by _________, a Mormon (if that had been the case).

Regarding Passion of the Christ, Mel Gibson made a ton of money off of religion with that movie, more than Witnesses could ever dream of making. He was smart to make the movie for a wide audience. Even so, the brutal violence of the film really put me off. I think it was no so long afterward that I started questioning why God would need to snuff out his supposed Holy Son and why all of that suffering was necessary. Certainly a "God" could forgive without all the blood.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Certainly a "God" could forgive without all the blood.

—-

The sword of the LORD is drenched with blood and covered with fat— with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of rams prepared for sacrifice. Yes, the LORD will offer a sacrifice in the city of Bozrah. He will make a mighty slaughter in Edom.

A case of mass murder, kidnapping, and sex trafficking

Judges 21:1-23 records a disturbing event in the life of the people of God. Some of the men in the village of Gibeah, in the territory of the tribe of Benjamin, raped and killed the concubine of a visiting Levite. Warriors from the other tribes gathered and decided to punish the offenders. However, the people of the tribe of Benjamin refused to hand them over and instead declared war on their fellow Israelites and massacred 25,000 of their warriors. The other tribes also lost many men and were so outraged that they swore an oath that in future they would not give any of their daughters in marriage to a man from the tribe of Benjamin. But, it wasn’t long before they realised that their oath would eventually result in the extermination of one of the 12 tribes, so they gathered to discuss the problem. All cities in Israel sent representatives to this meeting except Jabesh-Gilead and because of this, the others decided to send soldiers to that city to kill all its men and non-virgin women. They did this and then took the remaining 400 virgins and gave them to the men of Benjamin to have sex with.

I think God really likes barbarism. He’s basically Mel Gibson.

- Doc

[Doctor Scratch]

I would say a Mormon film would be something that promotes the church, essentially Mormon propaganda, like Meet the Mormons, Johnny Lingo, Mr. Kruger's Christmas, Witnesses, etc. The authoritarian church is about selling itself 24/7 so the Fund can grow to $One Trillion some day, and so the message that the church is no. 1 has to be front and center or implied. Mormon films must promote the restoration somehow. Missionary work must be done always. This is probably why a Mormon film won't do well at the box office. It wants more than the ticket price, it wants commitment to the Fund, and that probably is what turns people off. Other films like Apocalypto, had it been made by Mormons, would be incidental to Mormonism, no real ties, just entertainment and no propaganda. Any one could have made Apocalypto. It just so happened to be made by _________, a Mormon (if that had been the case).

When you put it that way, I find it hard to disagree with you. Given all the constraints you describe, yes: it's probably impossible for there to be truly "great" Mormon art. All of it will essentially be propaganda, though I suppose another way of looking at this is that these are really very niche films. Look at that list of titles you mentioned. Clearly, there is a "Mormon Cinema." Mainly, nobody watches these movies except for Latter-day Saints. Sometimes a "niche" film will achieve something like mainstream success. For example, have you heard of Kirk Cameron's film, Fireproof? The film openly offered itself up as a "Christian" production, and it did extremely well at the box office: it brought in $33.5 million on a budget of $500,000. Can you image how nuts the "SeN" people would be going right now if "Witnesses" was doing those kinds of numbers?

But then you step back and say to yourself: "Wait a second. That's a Kirk Cameron movie." Granted: it didn't get panned as badly as Left Behind, but then again, Witnesses doesn't have any professional critic reviews yet. Well, that doesn't matter if we're talking about "greatness," does it? Even the Reverend, who is the film's biggest proponent on this thread, I'd argue, says it wasn't aiming for "greatness." They were likely instead was probably hoping to settle for "Among the best of Mormon cinema," or "On a par with the films of Kirk Cameron." It's one hell of a backhanded "compliment," isn't it? But it's clearly in that genre. I mean, look at these figures (from the wiki on that Cameron film), along the lines of what has been quoted for Witnesses:

"It was released on September 26, 2008 in 839 theaters[12] and grossed $6,836,036 in its opening weekend, placing at No. 4.[13] During its run, Fireproof had a domestic gross of $33,456,317,[14] more than triple the lifetime earnings of its predecessor, Facing the Giants, and moving it into the top 6 grossing Christian films of all time.[15] It was the highest grossing independent film of 2008.[6]

Wow, it was setting records??? So, yeah: it sounds impressive at first, and then you think to yourself, "Ha ha! That's funny Dr. Peterson: your humble little film is ranked right there among Disney and Paramount. That's really something, isn't it?" So, he's making a self-deprecating joke, in a sense. But then you realize that it's actually not funny at all. Instead, it's just pathetic and sad.

Really: why can't the Church do better than this? "Mormon cinema" indeed.

[Kishkumen]

Here's a question for Dr. Exiled and the Reverend: What would you consider to be a "Mormon" film? Would something like Apocalypto count? And does September Dawn even count, since it was made by EV anti-Mormons? Would the movie need to have been made by a TBM? Thinking of Apocalypto reminds me that it was directed by hardcore, orthodox-Catholic Mel Gibson. So, does that then make it a *Catholic* movie instead of an (arguably) Mormon one? What about Passion of the Christ? Is that a fundamentally Catholic movie, even though loads of other Christian denominations lapped it up?

I remember reading Pauline Kael's review of The Exorcist, and she said something like, "It's the greatest recruitment poster the Catholic church has ever had." So, is The Exorcist the greatest Catholic film of all time? It's generally regarded as one of--if not *the*--greatest horror films of all time. And you can't deny the religious elements of it: it's one of the things that makes the film so frightening.

Curious what you think....

Interesting question, Doctor Scratch. To handle the last paragraph first, yes, Catholic horror is a kind of subgenre of horror, and Exorcist is the iconic Catholic horror film.

I am not sure why Apocalypto is brought up in the context of Mormon cinema. It deals with Mesoamerica, but that’s about it. Of course, I didn’t see it, so perhaps you can enlighten me. Now, if you classify both Apocalypto and the Book of Mormon as artistic responses to indigenous/European interactions in the New World, then I see a relationship but not one I would call uniquely Mormon.

I would definitely call September Dawn a Mormon film inasmuch as it deals with Mormon topics. It’s just an offensive piece of garbage that gets very many things wrong.

[Gadianton]

---major spoiler warning---

Apocalypto was a surprisingly good movie, and there is some shared Christian heritage that arguably does make it a Book of Mormon film. In that respect, it's the best Book of Mormon film every made. And SWK will equally be 'disappointed' that an outsider had to make it.

Apocalypto's broad stroke tells the story of the Limited Geography Theory. The protagonist, who lives a simple life of his "savage" faith, resembles a Nephite or even a Lamanite. The Mayans are the "others" that eventually wipe the Book of Mormon people off the map, leaving behind no evidence of their existence. Recall, Bill Hamblin argued this as the Nephite fate in a post that was pinned to the top of the MDB board for a year.

The fate of the protagonist will not be a kind one. The fascinating part of the movie is the unfolding of the Mayan's "New World Babylon" in all its glory and horror from his vantage point. The movie culminates in ritual sacrifice, and whether you believe from the orthodox Mormon perspective that this represents the Lamanites in their social decay, or the fringe Mopologist explanation that they are "others", or Mel Gibson's perspective that they have no affiliation with the Book of Mormon, the conclusion is the same, that the worst of humanity is explained by the absence of Christ.

The film is effective in building sympathy for its protagonist, and so by the end, it's tough to think anything positive about the Mayans. The final scene shows three Spanish ships parked in a harbor. It's up to the viewer to interpret this, but impulses have been cultivated to find a promise that "they'll get what's theirs". The Book of Mormon, anyone?

Does a ship in the harbor carry a Bible or a sword? There are those who conquered the savages and those like Lou Midgley who taught them. Which ship you got on was for the most part an accident of history. Perhaps the story of the destruction of the library at Alexandria by zealots is a myth, but I don't believe you can say the same about the destruction of Yucatan library. Catholicism took away their voice, Mormonism rewrote their story, and Gibson wrote a pretty good screenplay that bridges two splinters of European monotheism and shows, when looking at the bigger picture, that the Mopologists are of course right: Mormons are Christians.

[Lem]

---major spoiler warning---

Apocalypto was a surprisingly good movie, and there is some shared Christian heritage that arguably does make it a Book of Mormon film. In that respect, it's the best Book of Mormon film every made. And SWK will equally be 'disappointed' that an outsider had to make it....

It may be the best Book of Mormon film ever made; my only caveat might be that only those who are somewhat more than superficially aware of what Mormonism is would ever think that. In other words, almost no one. If only one in a million movie viewers thinks a movie is Mormon, would Russell M. Nelson call it a victory for or against Satan?

[Everybody Wang Chung]

There was a movie the 60’s called “Kings of the Sun” starring Yul Bryner. It could be considered a Mormon film.

Here is the trailer:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F00yWR000fE


Here is an article detailing why it’s a Mormon film:
https://bycommonconsent.com/2010/06/18/ ... ake-movie/

[Lem]

There was a movie the 60’s called “Kings of the Sun” starring Yul Bryner. It could be considered a Mormon film.

Here is the trailer:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F00yWR000fE


Here is an article detailing why it’s a Mormon film:
https://bycommonconsent.com/2010/06/18/ ... ake-movie/

That article was a fun read, thanks, Everybody Wang Chung. Although the final comment is hard to dispute:

Well of course it’s not a Book of Mormon epic — it has women in it!

[Doctor Scratch]

Yes: I agree with Lem and the Dean, Reverend Kishkumen--Apocalypto is worth seeing, and that it certainly tells an "LGT" story, as it were. Or, perhaps, these were the people that lived in the vicinity of Lehi & Co., but did not intermix with them, or whatever. As I recall, there were LDS archaeologists who served as advisors on the film.

And yes: The Exorcist is a terrific film. What would a Mormon horror film look like, I wonder?

Upthread, someone mentioned the temples, which I lean towards liking, though it should be said that I'm also a fan of Brutalist architecture. I also have a soft spot for the MoTab, but only the Christmas music, for what it's worth.