Does SeN really want Gemli to learn about the plates?

[Gadianton]

In my long-time mental summary from years of primary, Joseph Smith got the plates, put them in a box and when he moved, he sneaked them in a barrel of beans, and then it's hazy, they were translated out of view, setting on a table wrapped in something -- or something. At some point they were shown to a few people.

But the truth is, even after Smith had gotten the plates, they were more often then not fully out of his possession. He got them in September of 1827 and kept them in the house. He moved in October, hiding the plates in the barrel of beans. But they'd moved in with Emma's dad, who refused to have a secret item in his house. And so Joseph hides them in the woods, where they were left disrespectfully buried until June of 1829, when he and Emma moved to David Whitmer's house in Feyette New York. Were they hidden in a barrel of beans again for the journey? Well, it's a bit awkward given the controversy, and since everyone has had expectations managed over the last nearly two years, Joseph leaves them in the forest and heads for New York without the headache. At some point, Moroni sneaks into the forest, gets the plates, and then flies to New York and hides the plates somewhere in David Whitmer's backyard.

Now things happen fast. John Welch dates the three witnesses events to June 23, 1829, and then the eight, and then by the end of June, the plates are returned to Moroni.

So here is what Gemli is to understand for specifically, the three witness events. Moroni had just whisked the plates through the air from Pennsylvania to New York, from a forest where they'd been abandoned for 2 years, to David Whitmer's backyard. And now David, Oliver, and Joseph head out to another forest -- a forest in New York -- so that the initiates can see the plates. Moroni sneaks into Whitmer's backyard in broad daylight but is not detected, gets the plates, steals a small wooden table from one of the locals, and heads to the forest to cap off the path of the three sojourners. There he sets up the table with plates set open upon it for the three to see. Then he packs up and goes somewhere, and then returns and sets everything up again for Martin Harris and Joseph Smith. After that, Moroni returns the table, puts the plates back in Whitmer's backyard, and scrams.

Joseph, Emma, and the Whitmer's travel to Palmyra. It's not said how they got the plates from Whitmer's backyard to Palmyra. And here, probably another forest area, is where the eight witnesses "hefted" the covered plates.

[Doctor Scratch]

I think the fun for the Mopologists is in trying to trick Gemli into wasting his time. They know that he won't be convinced by what he reads--it will be a complete waste of his time. But, hey: they will have gotten to score a point against him by cheating him out of several hours of his atheistic mortal life.

[Philo Sofee]

I think the fun for the Mopologists is in trying to trick Gemli into wasting his time. They know that he won't be convinced by what he reads--it will be a complete waste of his time. But, hey: they will have gotten to score a point against him by cheating him out of several hours of his atheistic mortal life.

And the flip side is their belief they are using their time wisely, and getting brownie points in heaven and when they arrive there, they will be "added upon," whilst all others will become TK Smoothies. It's what keeps them going...

[Moksha]

LDS apologists would better waste Gemli's time by urging him to read both the Poetic and Prose Eddas. At least the Eddas exist and he could come across the name Gimli.

Would it prove the truthfulness of LDS claims? As much as anything else.

[Gadianton]

this one is instructive:

In March 1829, Martin Harris visited Harmony and asked to see the plates. Smith told him that he "would go into the woods where the Book of Plates was, and that after he came back, Harris should follow his tracks in the snow, and find the Book, and examine it for himself." Harris followed the directions but could not find the plates.

I assume that Joseph Smith was just trying to shift the blame; Martin should realize the problem is his own failure and quit asking about it.

But I wonder about things like, what if Martin had come back and announced he had found them. How would Joseph Smith react to that?

[Dr Exiled]

this one is instructive:

In March 1829, Martin Harris visited Harmony and asked to see the plates. Smith told him that he "would go into the woods where the Book of Plates was, and that after he came back, Harris should follow his tracks in the snow, and find the Book, and examine it for himself." Harris followed the directions but could not find the plates.

I assume that Joseph Smith was just trying to shift the blame; Martin should realize the problem is his own failure and quit asking about it.

But I wonder about things like, what if Martin had come back and announced he had found them. How would Joseph Smith react to that?

This reminds me of one of my favorite Mormon history episodes. It is when Joseph Smith was originally talking about seeing plates in the hill and he took fellow seer Samuel T. Lawrence in 1825 to be his fellow witness. Joseph Smith got the added witness but Lawrence one-upped him by claiming there were spectacles with the plates. Joseph Smith reluctantly included the spectacles thereafter and supposedly used them in part of the translation. However, soon went back to his tried and true rock & hat method.

Dan Vogel talks about it around 50:00 here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z0iHyvz5xY

So, if Martin came back claiming that he saw the plates, my guess is that Joseph Smith would have played along, manipulating the story to his benefit. I think Joseph Smith might have planned to have Martin come back claiming to have seen the plates, wanting another witness as he obtained with Lawrence. This might have obviated the 3 and 8 had Martin proudly proclaimed having seen the illusion.

[Gadianton]

This reminds me of one of my favorite Mormon history episodes. It is when Joseph Smith was originally talking about seeing plates in the hill and he took fellow seer Samuel T. Lawrence in 1825 to be his fellow witness. Joseph Smith got the added witness but Lawrence one-upped him by claiming there were spectacles with the plates. Joseph Smith reluctantly included the spectacles thereafter and supposedly used them in part of the translation. However, soon went back to his tried and true rock & hat method.

I was just about to continue with season 2 of "Black Summer" but I may have to view your link instead.

That's got to be the #1 most interesting Mormon history factoid I've encountered in years.

[Philo Sofee]

This reminds me of one of my favorite Mormon history episodes. It is when Joseph Smith was originally talking about seeing plates in the hill and he took fellow seer Samuel T. Lawrence in 1825 to be his fellow witness. Joseph Smith got the added witness but Lawrence one-upped him by claiming there were spectacles with the plates. Joseph Smith reluctantly included the spectacles thereafter and supposedly used them in part of the translation. However, soon went back to his tried and true rock & hat method.

I was just about to continue with season 2 of "Black Summer" but I may have to view your link instead.

That's got to be the #1 most interesting Mormon history factoid I've encountered in years.

I sure hadn't heard or learned anything of this in all my years of active Mormonism, including apologist! Soooo much to learn, so little time...

[Dr Exiled]

Joseph Smith is such a trickster, fast on his feet. I have to admire the guy even though he is fraudulent as hell. He reminds me of the Leonardo Di Caprio character in the Wolf of Wall Street. Sell me this pen Joseph Smith ... and I'd probably buy it.

[Gadianton]

I did watch that video and it's a real game changer for the theory of witnesses.

Samuel T. Lawrence is described as the senior seer, and Joseph Smith a little wet behind the ears. Samuel wasn't going to just do a favor for Smith without getting something in return. Since you've watched more of these videos, Dr. Exiled, is there any indication how the three witnesses compare to Lawrence? Was it a tough negotiation, or did they follow Smith around like puppy dogs?