Predicting Obama's October surprise

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_beastie
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Re: Predicting Obama's October surprise

Post by _beastie »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
beastie wrote:It is true. His campaign has had to retract some of the things he's said. Remember when he said he wouldn't dismantle ALL of Obamacare? Then his campaign clarified that statement? On Sixty Minutes, Mitt referred to the emergency room as an example of how we already provide health care for the poor. Yet, previously he had used the ER as an example of poor health care decisions. In the debate, he again acted like there were provisions of ACA that he would preserve.


I've never heard him say that they opposed all the provisions of Obamacare. I followed the Republican primaries closely (I'm a registered Republican), and what I heard was that they agreed with some of the provisions, but the law as presently constituted had to go. I personally don't believe anyone will be able to repeal the law, so it's kind of a moot point. But what I've heard consistently is that there are some things Romney likes about Obamacare.

As for the ER, my understanding was that he was saying that we do care for the poor, albeit in one of the least-efficient ways possible. It's like saying that filling the Gulf of Mexico with tapioca would take care of the BP oil spill, but there are better ways of doing it.


Can you appreciate how this sounds like spin? Can you appreciate how, to someone who does not support Romney, it sounds like a contradiction?

To back up a bit, Scott Pelley asked the former Massachusetts governor if he thinks "the government has a responsibility to provide health care to the 50 million Americans who don't have it today?"

Romney responded:

"Well, we do provide care for people who don't have insurance ... if someone has a heart attack, they don't sit in their apartment and — and die. We pick them up in an ambulance, and take them to the hospital and give them care. And different states have different ways of providing for that care."
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_bcspace
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Re: Predicting Obama's October surprise

Post by _bcspace »

Can you appreciate how this sounds like spin? Can you appreciate how, to someone who does not support Romney, it sounds like a contradiction?


No, not at all. To get rid of the most onerous parts of PPACA might or might have required it to be entirely dismantled such as a Supreme Court strike down or a blanket repeal. If there are any worthwhile parts of it that can be surgically worked around, then that's fine too.
Machina Sublime
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_Bob Loblaw
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Re: Predicting Obama's October surprise

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

beastie wrote:Can you appreciate how this sounds like spin? Can you appreciate how, to someone who does not support Romney, it sounds like a contradiction?


Sure, I can understand that. If Romney thought that ERs were the best way to provide healthcare, I would consider him a dunce of the lowest magnitude.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

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_Bob Loblaw
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Re: Predicting Obama's October surprise

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

Sometimes I think we're just talking past each other.

Democrats think Republicans want to repeal all regulation of every industry and in the words of the Rev. Al, return us to the 19th century.

Republicans think Democrats hate capitalism and want to destroy it by putting more power in the central government.

Neither of these things is true, but they make for good slogans.

Republicans say "repeal and replace" Obamacare, meaning that something is needed to fix our broken system, but Democrats hear only "repeal."

Democrats say they want to raise taxes on the wealthiest Americans. Republicans hear only "raise taxes."

We're campaigning against stereotypes of each other, not reality.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_bcspace
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Re: Predicting Obama's October surprise

Post by _bcspace »

Perhaps this will be Obama's October surprise:

Image

I believe the refineries are undergoing maintenance this month but I don't think the average voter is in tune enough to pick up on things like that. Such was evidenced a few summers ago during a CA energy crisis in which there were brownouts and rolling blackouts and people complained mightily when they saw no smoke coming from the stacks of some working power plants. They did not realize that the energy problems came at peak usage times and there are less need for power in the mornings when temps are cooler and people are not at home.

No matter. Obama's still going to lose because his record is dismal, his promises broken, and his policies a lodestone on the economy, not because of gas prices alone.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_bcspace
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Re: Predicting Obama's October surprise

Post by _bcspace »

We're campaigning against stereotypes of each other, not reality.


I don't think so. Conservatives and liberals have taken stands in two different parties and the liberal stereotypes are true because, even they say they like the free market, their policies are against it. Complete ignorance on their part, much like my example above.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Bob Loblaw
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Re: Predicting Obama's October surprise

Post by _Bob Loblaw »

bcspace wrote:I don't think so. Conservatives and liberals have taken stands in two different parties and the liberal stereotypes are true because, even they say they like the free market, their policies are against it. Complete ignorance on their part, much like my example above.


I disagree. I think liberals simply trust government more than the free market, whereas conservatives trust the free market over the government. Of course, there are some spectacularly ignorant conservatives out there, just as there are equally ignorant liberals. Neither side has a monopoly on common sense, and the demonization of both sides is ridiculous and very destructive.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS

"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
_beastie
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Re: Predicting Obama's October surprise

Post by _beastie »

Bob Loblaw wrote:
bcspace wrote:I don't think so. Conservatives and liberals have taken stands in two different parties and the liberal stereotypes are true because, even they say they like the free market, their policies are against it. Complete ignorance on their part, much like my example above.


I disagree. I think liberals simply trust government more than the free market, whereas conservatives trust the free market over the government. Of course, there are some spectacularly ignorant conservatives out there, just as there are equally ignorant liberals. Neither side has a monopoly on common sense, and the demonization of both sides is ridiculous and very destructive.


Thank you, Bob.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Predicting Obama's October surprise

Post by _Kevin Graham »

114,000 jobs a month doesn't keep up with demographic growth.


But the actual growth was much more because previous months were revised upwards around 80,000 and public sector job growth increased for the first time in a long time by something like 10,000. So it was actually more like a 200,000 jobs swing that knocked down the rate.

It proves we're moving in the right direction, which begs the question why fix something if it isn't broke? We are down from a high of 10% in December 2009. It has been going down gradually as Obama's policies take effect, and in reality it would have gone down much faster if Congress hadn't blocked his Jobs Bill. But Republicans blocked it because their #1 priority isn't what's best for the country. By their own admission their #1 priority is to make sure Obama doesn't get reelected, and the best way they can ensure that happens is by doing whatever is necessary to keep the economy down. This is basic logic, and they've already admitted this.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Predicting Obama's October surprise

Post by _Kevin Graham »

I disagree. I think liberals simply trust government more than the free market, whereas conservatives trust the free market over the government.


So whatever happened to the conservative axiom, "markets regulate themselves"? If you believe in regulation, then you don't have full confidence in the free markets as you say. I can't think of any Liberal whose basic principle is that we should "trust government above all else." This is a weird way of framing the issue, and it is entirely a straw man when presented in these terms from folks on the Right.

My thinking is, don't trust anyone unless they give you a good reason to. Generally, there is more reason to trust government over corporations because we already know that by definition, a corporation is only interested in one thing: profits above all else. And corporations have perfected the art of turning a profit while screwing over the consumers. Government by its definition isn't interested in any of that at all, so when they act at the behest of the people, chances are their attempts are genuine. Except in the cases where politicians have been corrupted by lobbying, which is essentially a way in which corporate powers use the arm of government to their advantage. They do this to tilt the market in their favor by creating monopolies, hindering competition, etc.

A perfect example of this is the way in which the corn industry has lobbied Congress so that it would tax the hell out of imported sugar. This is why so much of our food has fake sugars and corn syrup instead of pure cane sugar from South America. It is why Coca Cola tastes so much better in Brazil and Mexico. Because the soft drink companies use corn syrup because government intervention has made cane sugar too expensive to use.

But who do I blame for this, government or the driving force that made government legislate this way, the capitalists? I blame the entire lobbying enterprise which is essentially legalized bribery. In Brazil, a third world country, people are constantly arrested by their FBI, for trying to corrupt public officials. But here it is completely legal. The more money you have, the more influence you have. It is why Pawlenty just ditched Romney to work for the banking industry. He was always in their back pocket as a politician and they reward politicians by giving them high paying jobs after their public tenure.


Legislative proposals are generally written not by elected officials, but by corporate lobbyists who are trying to get government to force legislation that would benefit their corporate interests. The Free market capitalists have used money to change government into their personal military against consumers. The problem isn't government, but rather human nature. Government is run by human beings, many of whom are susceptible to greed. The quick buck. And corporations figured this out, and realize that lobbying is by far their best investments. And of course, who supports this more? The Republicans do. Just look at where most of Romney's campaign contributions come from. They want him in office because they know he is going to bend government to their will, just like Reagan did. Just like George Bush did when he passed that ridiculous Prescription Drug Bill, that essentially said drug companies can now charge whatever they want for their drugs. Former Congressman Billy Tauzin, R-La., who steered the bill through the House, retired soon after and took a $2 million a year job as president of Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA), the main industry lobbying group.

Medicare boss Thomas Scully, who threatened to fire Medicare Chief Actuary Richard Foster if he reported how much the bill would actually cost, was negotiating for a new job as a pharmaceutical lobbyist as the bill was working through Congress. A total of 14 congressional aides quit their jobs to work for the drug and medical lobbies immediately after the bill's passage.

Why is this legal?

The problem cannot be narrowed down to merely government vs. free market. You guys say the free market works well without government influence, but from my research, it is the other way around. Government works much better without the outside influence of corporate lobbyists because they have a vested interest in doing the bidding of those who put them in office, as opposed to those who can bribe them.
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