I HEREBY STEP DOWN FOR NOW

[Gadianton]

Markk,

Your post, once again, is open-ended and I can't respond to it in the number of words that I anticipate you will read. I think we have a fundamental difference in outlook about what a president is, and also, what a president is expected to be. The most memorable policy concept for me from the only political science class I took in college, which was a freshman requirement, was James Maddison's theory of a large government. A large government by design, should be steeped in gridlock, which prevents any faction of government from overpowering any other faction. A large nation isn't supposed to turn on a dime. And for economics, even though Milton Friedman's empirical research is overrated by his admirers and there are more regulatory underpinnings at work in functional markets than his childish admiration for markets in theory let on, Friedman's ideas about markets solving problems as much as possible probably influence me more than any other ideas in economics.

And so for me, when you talk about what makes a nation great, or what has the capacity to make a nation great, it's the shopkeepers themselves who do the heavy lifting along with the framework that allows them to do their jobs. We have three branches of government. We have the Federal Reserve, which is separate from the government. Unlike most other countries out there, our country doesn't allow the president command over interest rates. Our president can't literally print money, as many leaders can, to temporarily prop up his regime. When I was in college, my professors used to say it was Alan Greenspan who was the most powerful man in the nation, not the presidents who sat during his terms. A president literally can't "make America great" by his own dictates, thanks to our separation of powers. Presidents benefit more from the times they live in than the times they live in benefit from presidents.

If you think that a current president that is clearly declining, and just doing what he is told is somehow “off limits” then stop with the nonsense

Markk, slow down. Slow way, way down. I've never said that you can't criticize Biden. Feel free to start one thread a week ripping him to shreds if you must. Why do you think that I think criticizing Biden is off-limits? Your shotgun approach makes it impossible to discuss, but like I said, if you could focus on one issue and start there, it would help. Again, things like oil prices and interest rates were out of the hands of Trump, and they are out of the hands of Biden, and declaring victory for a president based on those sorts of things just indicates that you don't understand how the world works.

If Biden is making all of his decisions based on recommendations from his advisors who are experts in their respective niches, then I'm okay with that. As I said before, on the war, I think Biden is doing a decent job playing by the numbers. He's apparently fit to handle this fragile time well enough. He's certainly better fit to handle a war than Trump. That was my option, Markk, Biden or Trump. Somebody better wasn't on the ballot. Trump bragging about how he'd threaten nukes back, putting in American jets disguised as Chinese, talking up Putin's brilliance and saying we should send an Army to to the Mexican border and call it peacekeeping -- these are all things the man who may be leading us in 2024 in a continuing conflict with the world's largest nuclear arsenal is saying publicly right now. That doesn't make him a "jerk" or an "asshole" per say, it makes him incompetent as a military leader.

[Marcus]

Think of Spirit Paradise as a bar where a lot of people go to hook up and have a good time. But there are always a couple of loners at the bar who have given up on hooking up. They're the guys rehearsing their Robert De Niro You talkin' to me? speech while nursing their beer. They're looking for a provocation and then escalation.

Some of these guys get 86'd to Spirit Prison, but a lot of times they hang out on the edge of trouble.

Think of Shades as the bouncer in this establishment. It's a thankless task. The unruly customers complain they're being treated unfairly when he kicks them out, but a lot of the regulars are sick of the unruly customers.

Well, we have a few new bouncers, but they are understandably loathe to do more than nudge the unruly away from the bar and offer them free water. Maybe an appetizer to occupy them if they get really sloppy.

[Chap]

If Biden is making all of his decisions based on recommendations from his advisors who are experts in their respective niches, then I'm okay with that.

Christ, yes. There are heads of state who never listen to advice. Putin is an excellent example - how's that going for Russia at the moment?

... Trump bragging about how he'd threaten nukes back, putting in American jets disguised as Chinese, talking up Putin's brilliance and saying we should send an Army to to the Mexican border and call it peacekeeping -- these are all things the man who may be leading us in 2024 in a continuing conflict with the world's largest nuclear arsenal is saying publicly right now. That doesn't make him a "jerk" or an "asshole" per say, it makes him incompetent as a military leader.

Yup. Putin's refusal to allow comment on his policies is a carefully thought out power play to avoid anybody getting a handle on him. The results are bad for his country, but in the short to medium term good for Putin. Trump is a stupid person who believes he is a genius, and who thinks only in the now (which makes other dumb people love him as one of their own). That's a whole different ball game, and a potentially disastrous one for the US if he ever gets back into the White House.

[Markk]

LOL yeah right. I have stated over and over on this forum that Trumps is a A-hole, and that it is sad that we had such sad candidates (Trump and Hilary). Hell, a game show host beat a former First Lady, SOS, and Senator. Trump is a a-hole…but he was a leader no doubt where Biden is a old man circling the drain, and you can’t admit it or discuss it on a “discussion board.” Trump did some good things, even being a a-hole. We were energy independent…that is good. He was against the war in Afghanistan, while Obama and Biden said that were we should be instead of Iraq. He got us out of the messes in the Middle East and Biden screwed it up, not Trump..that is a good thing. Trump got the vaccines going and that alone is a crazy good thing in my book. He was getting the border under control and even had Mexico helping out a little. He did stupid things like acting like a butt hurt baby and did not take the high road when he should have. But I alas understand that the left lied and n=made up things that fueled it, but for me it was not a excuse, and it cost him another 4 years.

My point is show me in all your posts where you are a pragmatist in this even minded soul? LOL what a joke Gad. If I am wrong I will apologize.

If you think that a current president that is clearly declining, and just doing what he is told is somehow “off limits” then stop with the nonsense. If you think that Harris is qualified and ready for the task…then state so, or admit she is not.

I believe all “life’s problems” are because of our sin nature. I know my heart, and I know what it is capable of. I can see here the same with others even if less than I know my own heart. I am far less political than you think, but I know BS when I see it and I know the left is not leading us in the right direction, not because of politics but what is actually happening and how our cites are fully apart. I also believe all politicians are full of crap and in it for their own..so I can only follow what come out of their policy’s…and whether I like Trump or not he had America going the right direction for the most part, I see Biden as a puppet…and I pray that who ever is in charge makes good decisions and I pray for that.


Again do you believe that Biden is fit to handle such a fragile time? If Harris qualified?

Yes. I think you have showmanship confused with leadership. In terms of decline, I think Biden is in better shape than Trump during his presidency.

We weren’t energy dependent during the Trump presidency. We don’t even have the refineries capable of refining domestic oil. We exported domestic oil and imported foreign oil for domestic use. The price of gasoline during the Trump presidency was just as dependent on how much oil the OPEC nations decided to produce as it is today.

The oil reserves in the US are more expensive to recover and refine than the reserves in Saudi Arabia. If you want the US to produce more oil, the price has to be higher, not lower. As the price falls, production of domestic oil will become unprofitable before production of Saudi oil does.

When the pandemic hit, demand for oil plummeted. Trump leaned on the Saudis to cut production to keep the price high enough to keep domestic production operating. That was the right thing to do.

But it’s not like turning a trap on and off. When the US and parts of Europe decided that the pandemic was “over,” demand for oil rose very quickly, resulting in higher prices. And the Biden administration went back to the Saudis to lobby then to increase production, which, last I heard, they agreed to do.

Changes in US gasoline prices are almost entirely caused by changes in crude oil prices. Gasoline prices have spiked for three reasons:

1. A spike in demand as a pent up demand for petroleum products occurred;

2. The supply had been artificially reduced by OPEC.

3. The Russian invasion of Ukraine, including uncertainty and the extent of the boycott of Russian oil.

But, you also have to keep in mind for the long run: The cheapest and easiest oil gets harvested first. The US is out of cheap and easy oil reserves. So, if you want the US to be “energy independent,” you have to be willing to pay more at the pump — not less. And you have to sucker someone into building refineries in the US capable of refining US oil, when the world is moving away from fossil fuels and toward renewables.

But that’s the good news. If you are sincere in your desire for the US to become energy independent, green energy is your best friend. Because the OPEC doesn’t control the price of Sun and wind.

Energy independence means that we export more energy than we import. So your assertion is baseless. We were energy independent under Trump.

You are simpley bonkers if you think sun and wind is the answer, at least in the near or close to near future. Oil is the worlds life blood whether with like it or not. We can not survive without as a functioning society, it is that simple. We were under Trump, being energy independent on our way to assimilate into more wind and sun as you put it, which is good if given a natural course.

Just about everything we do depends on oil in one way or the other including moving toward more wind and sun. Do you understand what it would take to transform the nation let alone the world to sun and wind? For one thing winter states would suffer deeply states if you don’t have consistent sun or wind you are SOL. But what nobody wants to talk about is what it would take to convert the grid and covert housing, factories and commercial buildings to all electric.

Just think of a standard home (built in 1963), I’ll use mine as an example. I have electric and natural gas appliances. In order to go 100% wind and sun I first need to upgrade from a 100 amp panel to a 200 amp panel. I would then need purchase a new water heater, heater system, oven and range, and then provide conductors and other items to make it all work. There would also be permit and inspection costs. Then I need to reroof my house before I get solar (which I did last year so I can get on the waiting list for solar) and then purchase panels.

I am handy and have connections so I can DIY and get very good deals on, and manage, sub contract work which most Americans can’t do. What i just explained would lets say 4 k for panel upgrade, 25k to reroof, new appliances I would guess around 10- 20k depending on square footage and taste. the solar i am looking at is about 30K…add permit fees and item the city will make be do like added new switching and led lights another 5-7K…I also need to add a elect car charging stations which I will throw in another 500 bucks ( I just did one for my son). Then add 120k or more for two electric vehicles (I need a truck, my wife a car). Do the math …that’s pushing 200K…how many people who are struggling to just pay their mortgage and put beans on the table can afford this Res? What about folks that heat with oil…who’s paying to convert the system to sun and wind capabilities?

This does not count how all this stuff is going to be made powered by only wind and sun? Commercial buildings and factories to convert would cost who knows how much. Trucking companies to go electric…LOL oaky they can all afford that and still keep freight charges down.

Then there is the grid to handle the new gird it would take. Solar and wind plants, upgrades who know how many millions of miles of conductors. Who knows how many transformer upgrades…millions?

Any congressman or senator or president that thinks this is somehow going to happen overnight (in ten years or so) is either delusional of just flat out lying to you.

This does not even touch on thing like nickle, which we are rapping the earth to find..especially now in that Russia supple about 25% of the worlds Nicole from what I heard.

You need to think this trough Res.

Take care

[canpakes]

Energy independence means that we export more energy than we import. So your assertion is baseless. We were energy independent under Trump.

Markk,

You keep repeating this as if Trump was directly responsible for this. Unless Trump caused the coronavirus, that’s not exactly the case.

From the EIA website:

Following its historic shift to being a net exporter of petroleum in 2020, the United States continued to export more petroleum (which includes crude oil, refined petroleum products, and other liquids) than it imported in 2021. According to our February 2022 Short-Term Energy Outlook (STEO), we expect net crude oil imports to increase, making the United States a net importer of petroleum in 2022.

A country is a net importer if it imports more of a commodity than it exports. Conversely, a country is a net exporter if it exports more of a commodity than it imports. Many factors affect net trade numbers because trade reflects supply and demand conditions both domestically and internationally.

Historically, the United States has been a net importer of petroleum. During 2020, COVID-19 mitigation efforts caused a drop in oil demand within the United States and internationally. International petroleum prices decreased in response to less consumption, which diminished incentives for key petroleum-exporting countries to increase production. This shift allowed the United States to export more petroleum in 2020 than it had in the past.

Also in 2020, the difference between U.S. crude oil imports and exports fell to its lowest point since at least 1985. Net crude oil imports subsequently rose by 19% in 2021 to an average of 3.2 million barrels per day (b/d) as crude oil consumption increased in response to rising economic activity. We forecast that the United States will continue to import more crude oil than it exports in 2022, reaching an estimated annual average of 3.9 million b/d. However, we expect net imports to fall to 3.4 million b/d in 2023 as domestic crude oil production increases to an all-time high of 12.6 million b/d.

Since 2010, the United States has exported more refined petroleum products, including distillate fuel oil, hydrocarbon gas liquids, and motor gasoline, among others, than it has imported. Net exports of refined petroleum products grew to 3.3 million b/d in 2020 and remained about the same in 2021. We expect petroleum product net exports will reach new highs of 3.6 million b/d in 2022 and 3.8 million b/d in 2023.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=51338

[Res Ipsa]

Yes. I think you have showmanship confused with leadership. In terms of decline, I think Biden is in better shape than Trump during his presidency.

We weren’t energy dependent during the Trump presidency. We don’t even have the refineries capable of refining domestic oil. We exported domestic oil and imported foreign oil for domestic use. The price of gasoline during the Trump presidency was just as dependent on how much oil the OPEC nations decided to produce as it is today.

The oil reserves in the US are more expensive to recover and refine than the reserves in Saudi Arabia. If you want the US to produce more oil, the price has to be higher, not lower. As the price falls, production of domestic oil will become unprofitable before production of Saudi oil does.

When the pandemic hit, demand for oil plummeted. Trump leaned on the Saudis to cut production to keep the price high enough to keep domestic production operating. That was the right thing to do.

But it’s not like turning a trap on and off. When the US and parts of Europe decided that the pandemic was “over,” demand for oil rose very quickly, resulting in higher prices. And the Biden administration went back to the Saudis to lobby then to increase production, which, last I heard, they agreed to do.

Changes in US gasoline prices are almost entirely caused by changes in crude oil prices. Gasoline prices have spiked for three reasons:

1. A spike in demand as a pent up demand for petroleum products occurred;

2. The supply had been artificially reduced by OPEC.

3. The Russian invasion of Ukraine, including uncertainty and the extent of the boycott of Russian oil.

But, you also have to keep in mind for the long run: The cheapest and easiest oil gets harvested first. The US is out of cheap and easy oil reserves. So, if you want the US to be “energy independent,” you have to be willing to pay more at the pump — not less. And you have to sucker someone into building refineries in the US capable of refining US oil, when the world is moving away from fossil fuels and toward renewables.

But that’s the good news. If you are sincere in your desire for the US to become energy independent, green energy is your best friend. Because the OPEC doesn’t control the price of Sun and wind.

Energy independence means that we export more energy than we import. So your assertion is baseless. We were energy independent under Trump.

You are simpley bonkers if you think sun and wind is the answer, at least in the near or close to near future. Oil is the worlds life blood whether with like it or not. We can not survive without as a functioning society, it is that simple. We were under Trump, being energy independent on our way to assimilate into more wind and sun as you put it, which is good if given a natural course.

Just about everything we do depends on oil in one way or the other including moving toward more wind and sun. Do you understand what it would take to transform the nation let alone the world to sun and wind? For one thing winter states would suffer deeply states if you don’t have consistent sun or wind you are SOL. But what nobody wants to talk about is what it would take to convert the grid and covert housing, factories and commercial buildings to all electric.

Just think of a standard home (built in 1963), I’ll use mine as an example. I have electric and natural gas appliances. In order to go 100% wind and sun I first need to upgrade from a 100 amp panel to a 200 amp panel. I would then need purchase a new water heater, heater system, oven and range, and then provide conductors and other items to make it all work. There would also be permit and inspection costs. Then I need to reroof my house before I get solar (which I did last year so I can get on the waiting list for solar) and then purchase panels.

I am handy and have connections so I can DIY and get very good deals on, and manage, sub contract work which most Americans can’t do. What i just explained would lets say 4 k for panel upgrade, 25k to reroof, new appliances I would guess around 10- 20k depending on square footage and taste. the solar i am looking at is about 30K…add permit fees and item the city will make be do like added new switching and led lights another 5-7K…I also need to add a elect car charging stations which I will throw in another 500 bucks ( I just did one for my son). Then add 120k or more for two electric vehicles (I need a truck, my wife a car). Do the math …that’s pushing 200K…how many people who are struggling to just pay their mortgage and put beans on the table can afford this Res? What about folks that heat with oil…who’s paying to convert the system to sun and wind capabilities?

This does not count how all this stuff is going to be made powered by only wind and sun? Commercial buildings and factories to convert would cost who knows how much. Trucking companies to go electric…LOL oaky they can all afford that and still keep freight charges down.

Then there is the grid to handle the new gird it would take. Solar and wind plants, upgrades who know how many millions of miles of conductors. Who knows how many transformer upgrades…millions?

Any congressman or senator or president that thinks this is somehow going to happen overnight (in ten years or so) is either delusional of just flat out lying to you.

This does not even touch on thing like nickle, which we are rapping the earth to find..especially now in that Russia supple about 25% of the worlds Nicole from what I heard.

You need to think this trough Res.

Take care

Can’t take you seriously when you lead off with an absurdity. It doesn’t matter how much oil we pump here when we have to sell it to a foreign country because we can’t refine it here.
That’s not independence. Independence is zero imports. As long as we “depend” on other counties for the petroleum we consume, we are energy dependent.

It’s funny how you make a big deal about using one finite resource and then claim that we just can’t stop using another finite resource. Look, if you’re going to insist that we remain dependent on fossil fuels, then stop whining about gas prices. Because staying dependent on fossil fuels means the price of fossil fuels will continue to increase as we have to use more energy and resources to wring petroleum out of sand and rock. And, meanwhile, the people who can afford it the least will be screwed over by the additional costs imposed by water shortages, sea level rise, wild fires, etc.

But it’s not really about the poor people, is it? Because there are solutions to that. Not that you’ll entertain them. Because what this is about is team politics.

[canpakes]

Energy independence means that we export more energy than we import. So your assertion is baseless. We were energy independent under Trump.

Markk,

You keep repeating this as if Trump was directly responsible for this. Unless Trump caused the coronavirus, that’s not exactly the case.

From the EIA website:

Following its historic shift to being a net exporter of petroleum in 2020, the United States continued to export more petroleum (which includes crude oil, refined petroleum products, and other liquids) than it imported in 2021. According to our February 2022 Short-Term Energy Outlook (STEO), we expect net crude oil imports to increase, making the United States a net importer of petroleum in 2022.

A country is a net importer if it imports more of a commodity than it exports. Conversely, a country is a net exporter if it exports more of a commodity than it imports. Many factors affect net trade numbers because trade reflects supply and demand conditions both domestically and internationally.

Historically, the United States has been a net importer of petroleum. During 2020, COVID-19 mitigation efforts caused a drop in oil demand within the United States and internationally. International petroleum prices decreased in response to less consumption, which diminished incentives for key petroleum-exporting countries to increase production. This shift allowed the United States to export more petroleum in 2020 than it had in the past.

Also in 2020, the difference between U.S. crude oil imports and exports fell to its lowest point since at least 1985. Net crude oil imports subsequently rose by 19% in 2021 to an average of 3.2 million barrels per day (b/d) as crude oil consumption increased in response to rising economic activity. We forecast that the United States will continue to import more crude oil than it exports in 2022, reaching an estimated annual average of 3.9 million b/d. However, we expect net imports to fall to 3.4 million b/d in 2023 as domestic crude oil production increases to an all-time high of 12.6 million b/d.

Since 2010, the United States has exported more refined petroleum products, including distillate fuel oil, hydrocarbon gas liquids, and motor gasoline, among others, than it has imported. Net exports of refined petroleum products grew to 3.3 million b/d in 2020 and remained about the same in 2021. We expect petroleum product net exports will reach new highs of 3.6 million b/d in 2022 and 3.8 million b/d in 2023.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=51338


Regarding your example:

Just think of a standard home (built in 1963), I’ll use mine as an example. I have electric and natural gas appliances. In order to go 100% wind and sun I first need to upgrade from a 100 amp panel to a 200 amp panel. I would then need purchase a new water heater, heater system, oven and range, and then provide conductors and other items to make it all work. There would also be permit and inspection costs. Then I need to reroof my house before I get solar (which I did last year so I can get on the waiting list for solar) and then purchase panels.

Plenty of folks install rooftop solar with no intent to replace their gas usage with it. Therefore, they may keep their same appliances. The gas range and water heater are not the most significant users of electricity within their home. Chances are that their HVAC is.

Also, some folks like having the backs up capability as a hedge against brownouts or blackouts.

Regardless, you’re examining home installations. Centralized generation schemes are becoming much more cost-equivalent and remove the need for individuals to install their own solar.

[honorentheos]

Energy independence means that we export more energy than we import. So your assertion is baseless. We were energy independent under Trump.

You are simpley bonkers if you think sun and wind is the answer, at least in the near or close to near future.

Others have pointed this out but your definition is very wrong. That's not what energy independence means. You are describing being a net energy exporter. Two different things.

And you are also incredibly off in failing to realize that to be energy independent the US has to be able to generate energy on its own without reliance in other sources and that requires green energy to be even remotely feasible.

Your post is...not even wrong.

[Markk]

Energy independence means that we export more energy than we import. So your assertion is baseless. We were energy independent under Trump.

Markk,

You keep repeating this as if Trump was directly responsible for this. Unless Trump caused the coronavirus, that’s not exactly the case.

From the EIA website:

Following its historic shift to being a net exporter of petroleum in 2020, the United States continued to export more petroleum (which includes crude oil, refined petroleum products, and other liquids) than it imported in 2021. According to our February 2022 Short-Term Energy Outlook (STEO), we expect net crude oil imports to increase, making the United States a net importer of petroleum in 2022.

A country is a net importer if it imports more of a commodity than it exports. Conversely, a country is a net exporter if it exports more of a commodity than it imports. Many factors affect net trade numbers because trade reflects supply and demand conditions both domestically and internationally.

Historically, the United States has been a net importer of petroleum. During 2020, COVID-19 mitigation efforts caused a drop in oil demand within the United States and internationally. International petroleum prices decreased in response to less consumption, which diminished incentives for key petroleum-exporting countries to increase production. This shift allowed the United States to export more petroleum in 2020 than it had in the past.

Also in 2020, the difference between U.S. crude oil imports and exports fell to its lowest point since at least 1985. Net crude oil imports subsequently rose by 19% in 2021 to an average of 3.2 million barrels per day (b/d) as crude oil consumption increased in response to rising economic activity. We forecast that the United States will continue to import more crude oil than it exports in 2022, reaching an estimated annual average of 3.9 million b/d. However, we expect net imports to fall to 3.4 million b/d in 2023 as domestic crude oil production increases to an all-time high of 12.6 million b/d.

Since 2010, the United States has exported more refined petroleum products, including distillate fuel oil, hydrocarbon gas liquids, and motor gasoline, among others, than it has imported. Net exports of refined petroleum products grew to 3.3 million b/d in 2020 and remained about the same in 2021. We expect petroleum product net exports will reach new highs of 3.6 million b/d in 2022 and 3.8 million b/d in 2023.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=51338

First of all Res was referring to “wind and sun”…not “wind,sun,and natural gas”. . . so pleas keep our conversation is context. Secondly, the current administration want to reduce and cut natural gas (NG)…so like myself, one who is moving towards solar and NG, what good is having gas if it is phasing out?

This is not about Trump, it is about common sense Aand dealing with the fact that the world is dependent on oil and gas. Without oil and gas there is not electricity. You can’t manufacture the parts and pieces and delivery the them without oil, you can’t mine, process, refine the parts and pieces needed for solar and wind with out oil. We can’t mass farm and deliver foods and feeds without oil. I’m sorry but you need to think this through.

[Res Ipsa]

Markk,

You keep repeating this as if Trump was directly responsible for this. Unless Trump caused the coronavirus, that’s not exactly the case.

From the EIA website:



https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=51338

First of all Res was referring to “wind and sun”…not “wind,sun,and natural gas”. . . so pleas keep our conversation is context. Secondly, the current administration want to reduce and cut natural gas (NG)…so like myself, one who is moving towards solar and NG, what good is having gas if it is phasing out?

This is not about Trump, it is about common sense Aand dealing with the fact that the world is dependent on oil and gas. Without oil and gas there is not electricity. You can’t manufacture the parts and pieces and delivery the them without oil, you can’t mine, process, refine the parts and pieces needed for solar and wind with out oil. We can’t mass farm and deliver foods and feeds without oil. I’m sorry but you need to think this through.

No, it's you who isn't thinking this through. You claimed you wanted energy independence. Well, you actually don't. You want to keep us energy dependent. That's my point. Now you're acting like I'm proposing to stop using fossil fuels this second, which I'm obviously not. That's a straw man.

You're not using common sense. You're just cheering for your team.